Hordes of the Abyss.

[Rystil Arden]

It seems that the "aspects" idea was James' and Erik's idea, and the editors took it out.

To be clear, you really think they're going to make Bel the Pit Fiend weaker than a pit fiend?

Did they really take that out completely? I thought they just imply it now instead of flat-out telling you. Either way, I think they will probably keep the Lords of the Nine in the same range as the Demon Lords, 19-23. Since there aren't any Lords of the Nine who are quite as low on the totem pole as Juiblex is among Demon Lords, they will probably err on the 21-23 side, with nothing at 19. Thus, Bel won't be weaker than a pit fiend, but he won't be enough stronger to make sense.

Now they could surprise me in a happy way and switch to Demonomicon CRs, and they might also surprise me in a gut-wrenchingly terrible way by making Bel CR 19 and flat-out stating that these are the real Lords of the Nine, not manifestations, but I doubt it.

 

[Ripzerai]

Did they really take that out completely? I thought they just imply it now instead of flat-out telling you.

I thought it was taken out completely, but I'll have to see the book to say for sure.

they will probably err on the 21-23 side, with nothing at 19.

That's possible. If they assume that Bel doesn't have any stronger-than-pit fiend followers (so Amducius and Malphas are gone), that Martinet (and other diabolic nobles) is as strong or stronger than Bel, and that Glasya is just a glorified erinyes, they might be able to cram everything into that range.

 

[Rystil Arden]

I thought it was taken out completely, but I'll have to see the book to say for sure.

I'm hoping it is still there. Clearly the clause is at least present in the backs of the minds of the designers, even if the editor took it out in an unusual move. If we're lucky, it may even be addressed specifically eventually.

That's possible. If they assume that Bel doesn't have any stronger-than-pit fiend followers (so Amducius and Malphas are gone), that Martinet (and other diabolic nobles) is as strong or stronger than Bel, and that Glasya is just a glorified erinyes, they might be able to cram everything into that range.

I think, considering the Demon Lords, that they would be willing to do so. But they don't have to worry about balors because everyone hates balors for being too lawful, right?

 

[bowbe]

It's all about the mini's hahahahah!

 

[glass]

In any event, I feel that on these many threads I've explained the reasoning behind setting the demon lords at the minimum of what their CR scores should be, since it's easier to advance creatures from a baseline. Also, as clearly evidenced by these threads, everyone has a different idea as to how powerful a demon lord should be. Clearly, the majority of D&D fans think their power should be higher than CR 20-23. For what it's worth, I agree, which is why I've been (and shall continue to) write the Demonomicon articles for Dragon.

Sorry to keep harping on this, but I've been wanting to ask a question for a while and since the issue has been brought up again...

The rationale for the lower CR demon lords is that at the lower CRs they can be used as a climatic encounter for a standard (20 level) game, correct? What do you say to the comment that CR19 or 20 encounters are not suitable climaxes to a campaign, but walkovers for 20th level characters?

If this has been adressed, my apologies, but I haven't seen it. Anyway, keep up the good work with the Demonomicon articles!


glass.

 

[GQuail]

Sorry to keep harping on this, but I've been wanting to ask a question for a while and since the issue has been brought up again...

The rationale for the lower CR demon lords is that at the lower CRs they can be used as a climatic encounter for a standard (20 level) game, correct? What do you say to the comment that CR19 or 20 encounters are not suitable climaxes to a campaign, but walkovers for 20th level characters?

There's some logic to that: though of course, the demon lords aren't all sitting at 19 or 20, only the weaker ones. Still, a CR 20 encounter for a 20th elvel group is average, not epic-end-of-years-play.

I personally would be unlikely to use a Demon Lord in single encounter, and the book does mention some of their higher level lieutenants: So that could easilly kick the EL of the encounter up a few notches until it felt more like a "final encounter" than a "Oh, look, a big thing with wings, I wonder what gear it's carrying?" The start of the archfiends section does explicitly say "these villains are not expected to be caught alone ina random dungeon, but in their lairs with back-up".

 

[JustaPlayer]

The start of the archfiends section does explicitly say "these villains are not expected to be caught alone ina random dungeon, but in their lairs with back-up".

You know that is one of the lines in the book that annoys me. There are a few more. While on here the authors say that these write ups were meant to be Prime Material versions of the entities in question. Nowhere in the book does it even come close to making that clear. Instead we have quotes throughout the book along the lines of the one above.

Makes me think that those are home plane stats from the way it reads.

Edit: Now you combine that line with one from the very first paragraph from the book that says something to the lines of from this day forward this will be the definitive sorce on demons it sound like they reconned them to the lower CRs.

 

[Cheiromancer]

A campaign could have a human king statted as a third level aristocrat- his champion might be a 10th level fighter, and he might have a 7th level wizard as an advisor. This wouldn't be totally impossible.

Granted, it requires some suspension of disbelief to imagine an analogous situation in the abyss or the hells (where someone better placed in the hierarchy is weaker than a subordinate) but it is conceivable.

It seems that a CR 20 encounter is better as the climax to a 14th level campaign than a 20th level campaign. As noted previously, a CR 20 encounter should be routine for a 20th level party.

I suppose adding sufficient backup would make it more challenging, but I think the final encounter of a level 20 adventure should involve a significantly higher CR monster. Not a CR 21 monster with some goons.

 

[GQuail]

I think the final encounter of a level 20 adventure should involve a significantly higher CR monster. Not a CR 21 monster with some goons.

It's a matter of DM tastes, I guess. I play with a large group (8 players) and in play I often find a single tough monster there to be far more swingy than a group of monsters: so I'd rather have a CR 21 beastie with six CR 18 bodyguards than a single CR 24 as a 20th level finale.

For me, a big dude + backup is easy enough to convert into an appropriate final encounter: storming the throneroom of Orcus and having to carve your way through his elite guard while he stands on his throne hurling spells at you, or dealing with Pazuzu and his cronies divebombing you as you try to escape to the portal with your stolen artifact.

But it's a matter of preference, of course: those who wish a single big nasty demon prince to go on a rampage vs their party could advance them to suit.

 

[GQuail]

While on here the authors say that these write ups were meant to be Prime Material versions of the entities in question. Nowhere in the book does it even come close to making that clear. Instead we have quotes throughout the book along the lines of the one above.

Makes me think that those are home plane stats from the way it reads.

It was made clear in the first few pages of this thread that the book is /supposed/ to say this, but doesn't: that it was written by Erik & James, but at some point down the editing line it got cut. Which is a shame, since this one line would have prevented most of this thread, I'll wager. :-( In it's absence, the best you can do is use the book on the understanding that it's supposed to say that.

Now you combine that line with one from the very first paragraph from the book that says something to the lines of from this day forward this will be the definitive sorce on demons it sound like they reconned them to the lower CRs.

Basically, it says that this book is going to be the source that all other fiendish topics will refer to: so if a new Dragon article or published adventure or whatever refers to Orcus, this is where it will direct you to go. That's not an unreasonable thing to say: what would the point be in a sourcebook on a topic otherwise?