Hordes of the Abyss.

[JustaPlayer]

A campaign could have a human king statted as a third level aristocrat- his champion might be a 10th level fighter, and he might have a 7th level wizard as an advisor. This wouldn't be totally impossible.

Granted, it requires some suspension of disbelief to imagine an analogous situation in the abyss or the hells (where someone better placed in the hierarchy is weaker than a subordinate) but it is conceivable.

While I think it would be conceivable in Hell, I don't think it would in the Abyss. Hell is ruled by law. In the Abyss, without the rule of law, I just don't see weaker being ruling greater ones.

 

[JustaPlayer]

It was made clear in the first few pages of this thread that the book is /supposed/ to say this, but doesn't: that it was written by Erik & James, but at some point down the editing line it got cut. Which is a shame, since this one line would have prevented most of this thread, I'll wager. :-( In it's absence, the best you can do is use the book on the understanding that it's supposed to say that.



Basically, it says that this book is going to be the source that all other fiendish topics will refer to: so if a new Dragon article or published adventure or whatever refers to Orcus, this is where it will direct you to go. That's not an unreasonable thing to say: what would the point be in a sourcebook on a topic otherwise?

Maybe it was "supposed" to say that. And I believe Erik wrote it. But for whatever reason it was removed. Now the book reads that these guys are almost always encountered on their layers, by the way here are their stats, oh and this is the source we will base all future WotC books on.

Edit: You can feel free to edit them, but these are the official versions.

I know alot of people don't see the problem with "offical" but the thing that buggs someone like me is that I want things to be plausable.

 

[Ripzerai]

While I think it would be conceivable in Hell, I don't think it would in the Abyss. Hell is ruled by law. In the Abyss, without the rule of law, I just don't see weaker being ruling greater ones.

I can see it happening very rarely, when a very clever and charismatic demon controls a stupid-but-powerful demon (as is the case with V'aughrosfl), but shouldn't be the norm in the Abyss. Maybe Graz'zt is less powerful than some of his minions, like the big goristro, but Demogorgon and Orcus rule by might as well as intelligence.

It would be very disappointing and profoundly unlikely if every demon lord was a fraud, which is what people are really arguing here. A 7th level human wizard serves his 1st level aristocrat monarch because he respects the rule of law or because the other citizens in the nation do - there are established procedures for inheritance, and even if the wizard were to kill the aristocrat he wouldn't inherit the throne. But in the Abyss, there are no such procedures, and the only options are force or trickery.

And it wasn't the intention of the authors of Hordes of the Abyss that they be frauds or weaker than their minions in any way.

 

[Erik Mona]

Maybe it was "supposed" to say that. And I believe Erik wrote it. But for whatever reason it was removed. Now the book reads that these guys are almost always encountered on their layers, by the way here are their stats, oh and this is the source we will base all future WotC books on.

Edit: You can feel free to edit them, but these are the official versions.

I know alot of people don't see the problem with "offical" but the thing that buggs someone like me is that I want things to be plausable.

To be clear, I wrote Chapter 5 and the first two appendices. Other than treating the stats in FC1 as powerful avatars in my own campaign, I have no dog in this particular hunt.

All I can say is that there is plenty of other dicussion fodder in the book besides this issue, which I think has been pretty well covered in the previous dozen or so pages of this thread.

--Erik

 

[Shade]

Here's a discussion topic.

How about a pronunciation guide for the new stuff within? Earlier in one of these threads you confirmed OH-ber-iths and loo-MAR-uhs.

How do the authors pronounce...
Dybbuk
Ekolid
Guecubu
Sibriex
?

This should help alleviate the "sounds like cow/sounds like row" arguments years from now.

 

[JustaPlayer]

To be clear, I wrote Chapter 5 and the first two appendices. Other than treating the stats in FC1 as powerful avatars in my own campaign, I have no dog in this particular hunt.

All I can say is that there is plenty of other dicussion fodder in the book besides this issue, which I think has been pretty well covered in the previous dozen or so pages of this thread.

--Erik

Erik, I just want to be clear that I think you had everything written like you say. I just think said lines were removed because someone over your head said something along the lines of.... Well, they can't be just earthly representations of them because that won't feel as "Epic" as defeating the real thing. And thus they removed your lines. I love the way they are turning out in Dragon for sure though.

 

[johnnype]

I know Fiendish Codex II is probably going to print by now but it would be nice if they "fixed" the CR issue given the fact that we will NOT see alternate stats in Dragon magazine for a very long time (if ever). The Demonimicon articles cover demons not devils. It would also be nice to have just one book with wimpy stats instead of two (or three if they go ahead with Codex III).

Just my two cents.

 

[James Jacobs]

How do the authors pronounce...

I say:

Dybbuk: DI-book (short 'I', like in "fin" or "shin", this is based on a real-world mythological creature from Hebrew/Jewish tradition, so it's already got a pronounciation out there)

Ekolid: EK-o-lid (this one I made up, and that's how I say it; rhymes with "Heck-oh-lid")

Sibriex: SIB-ree-ex (I made this one up too. Rhymes with RIB-glee-hex)

Guecubu: This one's the tricky one. Like the Dybbuk, this monster's based on a real-world mythological monster (they're evil spirits from Chili). I found its pronounciation online at one point while I was writing it up, and it's fun to say. Alas, I can't find it today. The first syllable starts in the back of your throat, like you're about to spit. The "G" is a soft sound. I guess the best way to write it down would be:

WHE-koo-boo

 

[Erik Mona]

Erik, I just want to be clear that I think you had everything written like you say. I just think said lines were removed because someone over your head said something along the lines of.... Well, they can't be just earthly representations of them because that won't feel as "Epic" as defeating the real thing. And thus they removed your lines. I love the way they are turning out in Dragon for sure though.

I don't want to sound like I'm belaboring a point, here, but I did not write the section on the demon lords, so the line in question was not written by me. My stuff had nothing to do with aspects or avatars or what have you.

Not sure why it's important to me to make this clear, but there you have it.

--Erik

PS: Thanks for the kind words on Dragon!

 

[BOZ]

Sorry to keep harping on this

it would be too much to let sleeping dogs lie, would it?