Hordes of the Abyss.

[Kobold Avenger]

I seem to remember in Dead Gods when there's the confrontation against Orcus/Tenebrous in Agathion, should the PCs be too late in destroying the wand (something really difficult to do, as one PC would likely have to sacrifice their life inorder to do that), it says he'll just simply kill the PCs unless they use some sword to delay him for 1d3 hours. No stats there, just a mention that they'll die anyways, because he knows the Last Word and wants them dead.

I tend prefer stats for Demon Lords in the CR 25 plus range, since it seems reasonable enough for me. I can't see epic level play going beyond 30 with me, and 25 might even be the limit. And it's easier to advance a Demon Lord at that range of CR, if PCs somehow got beyond the 25th level range. Yeah but I can see it could be harder working in reverse on the CR, but I personally don't think 20th level PCs should be beating any Demon Lord anyways.


Anyways here's some questions:

1) Did they try and describe anything about the Abyssal Language? I noticed for example -lith would be something in Abyssal language for something like 'person' since there's the Marilith, Wastrilith, Bebilith and Alkilith among the demons (a few of them non-Tanar'i) with named like that.

2) Any mention of books with the true names of many demons, such the Mors Mysterium Nominum and whatever other ones there are?

3) Does the book delve into truly ancient times of the Abyss from before anyone can remember?

4) I think the only Tanar'i Demons from previous editions that haven't been covered in any 3e book has so far been the Molydeus, Bulezau and Nabassu, so are all of those ones covered?

5) Are the Ships of Chaos designed by Demons and Sigil's Doomguard faction mentioned? What about the living Abyssal fortresses described in what I remember was a 2e Dragon Magazine article.

6) Just who are the Demon Lords described in some detail?

 

[ruleslawyer]

Amen. I really wish that someone would just create a dump thread for this "stats for archfiends" topic.

 

[Sammael]

But Bloodstone's fair game?

Bloodstone's fair game when we're discussing 1e. For Duty and Deity, Dead Gods, and Fires of Dis should be fair game when we're discussing 2e. Note that all three have a slightly different approach in handling archfiends. FDaD has Graz'zt's stats, even though he doesn't appear in the adventure itself. Dead Gods has the aforementioned quote aboput Orcus/Tenebrous. Fires of Dis presents Dispater through an immensely powerful avatar.

Alright, I quit. This discussion is really going nowehere. What's done is done, I'll simply ignore the stats in FC1 and hope that the rest of the book comes through (which it really should, considering who its authors are).

 

[Swordsage]

After reading this thread and learning that the demon lords and princes will be in the CR20-24-ish range, I too am disappointed. You see, my campaigns never last beyond a couple of sessions and I was hoping that the lords/princes would be tailored to my particular needs and so would have a CR range of 2-4. Very disappointed, just like all the other DM fans of demonic encounters. I know exactly where they are coming from.

The Swordsage

 

[Erik Mona]

*flutters fiendish eyelashes*

What I want to know is:

1) Is there anything in the flavor text that gives justifications to the Abyssal Lords being able to manhandle deities, given the rather unfortunate false dichotomy between archfiends and true deities that 3e has provided us with? Ie is there material on the control Abyssal Lords have over their own layers of the Abyss?

2) Is there anything mentioned regarding the origins of the Tanar'ri, specifically tied to the Heart of Darkness mythos and the General of Gehenna.

3) Spill the beans on the two non-Tanar'ri races of CE fiends. Do they predate the arrival of the Tanar'ri in the Abyss, post date it? I'm keen to see where they went with this.

4) Pale Night: what's the dark on her relationship with the Tanar'ri, or lack thereof. Is she actually a Tanar'ri, or something... else?

5) What is mentioned regarding Charon as a yugoloth lord, and what context is he mentioned in.

6) What sort of material is there on the Tanar'ri within the context of fighting the Blood War?

I'm eager to answer all of these questions (and I've got answers for all of 'em), but I've got to wait until the book's street date. If Joe reads the book he should be able to answer most of this stuff for you.

Sorry!

--Erik

 

[The Serge]

I am looking forward to the book just because it features fiends. However, I am disappointed to hear the plans for the demon lords and demon princes. For me it's an issue of internal consistency... A balor's a CR 20 and a demon prince that runs an entire layer of The Abyss and has to stave off the interests of CE gods is barely higher than that in power...?

Okay.

At any rate, aside from that, I suspect that the book will be pretty good. I respect most of what Jacob, Mona, and the rest have done and will not let this gaff adversely affect my intent to buy.

 

[Shemeska]

I'm eager to answer all of these questions (and I've got answers for all of 'em), but I've got to wait until the book's street date.

Tease

I'm looking forward to seeing what angle you and James took with those particular bits of lore, among other things. I may or may not agree with the direction such things go in specific cases (though if I am, all the more better) but I'm curious nonetheless.

 

[Psion]

I am looking forward to the book just because it features fiends. However, I am disappointed to hear the plans for the demon lords and demon princes. For me it's an issue of internal consistency... A balor's a CR 20 and a demon prince that runs an entire layer of The Abyss and has to stave off the interests of CE gods is barely higher than that in power...?

Sorry to be a broken record, but people keep on missng htis point. To repeat what was said upthread again:

The base stats represent the fiend off his plane. The "real" stats of the fiend can be significantly higher.

 

[The Serge]

Sorry to be a broken record, but people keep on missng htis point. To repeat what was said upthread again:

The base stats represent the fiend off his plane. The "real" stats of the fiend can be significantly higher.

Given the direction taken by WotC with the gods by providing full stats for their actual beings in addition to their avatars, this seems an unfortunate move nevertheless. I'm sure the answer is that this direction will allow greater flexibility for DMs who want to create more or less powerful demon lords/princes for their own games and so forth, but it still strikes me as... I'll leave it at that. As I said, I'll buy it regardless.

 

[Razz]

I am going to use the weaker stats for outside their home. You kill them outside, it's like killing a deity's avatar.

For their true stats, I'm replacing their feats with epic feats, epic equipment, applying the Paragon template and tripling their Hit Dice and using the suggestions in Hordes of the Abyss outlined within.

There, all said and done with me. I'm fine now.

Now down to the CRUNCHY material. I care less for Fluff, I can make that up. No book can ever give enough fluff for the Abyss, it's pretty much a "anything goes" sort of deal. My questions are:

1) How many PrC are there? What're the names and a little sentence on what they do?

2) How many feats? Is there a good amount for both the bad and good guys?

3) Are there any new Vile spells?

4) Tell us the new demon race, better yet, a ToC of the new monsters in the book