Horror - how dark is too dark?

[gamerprinter]

I am developing Kaidan: a Japanese Ghost Story setting for Pathfinder. In my research for horror concepts of the east, I am discovering many ideas that while form typical horror content in the east, might be considered very uncomfortable for a western audience. So I ask myself, "How dark is too dark?" or "How far can I go, yet still know I haven't crossed the line?"

There are Japanese movies that go too far, at least that I can recognize. In Takeshi Miike's Imprint the subject matter goes towards a very graphic representation of life in prostitution, including feudal abortion clinics, and child molestation. All certainly too dark of concepts, IMO.

Already, the first adventure of Kaidan's intro arc, The Gift, has a scene where a serial killer has been abducting children, torturing them, then dumping their bodies into a mountain lake. At one point the PCs are encamped by this lake and get attacked by zombie children - the victims of the serial killer. In adventure 2, Dim Spirit, the PCs will find themselves sharing a guest quarters with the serial killer in question, and get the opportunity to end his reign of terror, prior to his next incident.

So already, there is some dark material in product series. I would like to further explore the dark side, and bring some of what are common horror tropes of the east into my Kaidan setting. But I am wary of going too far.

I don't want to have to introduce a labeled 'NC17' product.

How far is too far, or how far is just short of too far...

Thoughts?

GP

 

[The Shaman]

Rape, incest, and child abuse are my taboos. For whatever that's worth.

 

[Bedrockgames]

I think violence against children is an area where American audiences may have some trouble (but much of this depends on how it is executed I suppose). You could also take the approach that draws on dark elements of J Horror that are still acceptable to american audiences but ignores the stuff that may not be. Certainly they tackle some dark themes in J Horror, but they aren't all themes that are off limits here.

But it sounds like you have already got stuff with the violence against children thing (not sure how graphically you handle it though). That is probably the extent you can go IMO. I think any further than that and people are going to have trouble with it (plus I think in some European countries the material you describe may not even be allowable---I heard this on an RPG forum so take it with a grain of salt).

Ultimately it is up to you. However I think if you do veer into territory that will trouble some members of your audience you should at least attach a warning on the cover or in the product description. That way you are doing your due diligence so no one is surprised.

 

[Ahnehnois]

You can replace the word "dark" in this sentence with any number of stylistic parameters: Your game is too [dark] when it is no longer grounded in reality.

I wouldn't want to see D&D (PF, rpgs in general) go into "torture porn" territory where gratuitously graphic elements are introduced purely for shock value. But we live in a world where serial killers, terrorists, brutal dictators are part of life and these things can and should be integrated into dramatic fiction accurately-D&D included.

a serial killer has been abducting children, torturing them, then dumping their bodies into a mountain lake. At one point the PCs are encamped by this lake and get attacked by zombie children - the victims of the serial killer. In adventure 2, Dim Spirit, the PCs will find themselves sharing a guest quarters with the serial killer in question, and get the opportunity to end his reign of terror, prior to his next incident.

As long as it's being marketed as what it is, I don't see any problem with that sort of material. I think having villains that are actually evil makes the game much more emotionally engaging, and especially in D&D where the PC's victory is often presumed, that victory much more satisfying.

Violence against children is a difficult topic, but it happens and it's often ignored because no one wants to think about it. That being said, it can be used artistically; and if you do it with respect, it can even shed light on the issue. Barring the public service aspect, material like that can uniquely touch people. Look what BSG did with the topic.

 

[nedjer]

Personally, much prefer creep to horror, as gore and the abhorrent loses impact pretty fast.

I'd also find it much easier to get my teeth into say someone putting alchemical waste in kids' water supply or feeding them mystic parasites - rather than trying to run a serial child killer.

 

[Hand of Evil]

• When your players vomit, you MAY have gone too far.
• When your players have nightmares, you MAY have gone too far.
• When your players leave the table with the shakes, you MAY have gone too far.
• When your players do not return, you went too far.

 

[gamerprinter]

The only telling scene for the PCs in that disturbing scene, is that some may be asleep and they have a nightmare - seeing themselves as a kidnapped child. While the details are left up to the viewer, the child dies in the hands of the killer - then the PCs awaken to the horror of being attacked by the children. That's as far as it goes in that adventure.

GP

 

[Bold or Stupid]

If you can't read your character sheet it's too dark

I think the trick is in the warning, if people know what to expect it's usually okay. A lot of the limits are particular to a certain group or player. The tricjk is writing a sceanario that allows for modification based on the personal taste of the group using it. In Kult my horror game of preference I warn people that I will go over the edge to shock, and games regular include rape, cannabilism, torture and incest, and thats just by the PCs.

General menace and dread work better as horror elements than gore or simple shocks. You may want to look at Dread to get an idea of what works well in horror RPGs.

 

[gamerprinter]

I think there's a lot of latitude. Have a look at the comics world, a comparable, often-overlapping branch of geekdom. Thumb through an issue or two of Preacher or Transmetropolitan or Hellblazer or even some of Sandman (Sin City would also be a great example, what with the attempted rapes, pedophilia, prostitution, cannibalism, abuse, and extremely graphic violence). Some of that stuff is dark as pitch, but all of them are very popular and have multiple industry awards. None of them shy away from taboo themes, and some unabashedly revel in them. They have much more to them than simple shock value, but the dark tone is vitally necessary to give them their particular grotesque frisson. I don't think there's any particular reason to surmise that roleplayers as a group are less tolerant of dark stuff than comic book readers.

Or how about the new Conan movie - pretty heavy gore there!

While its not my goal to do the darkest material or goriest stuff, I'd like to have touchstones to work with to compare in my pursuit of horror.

GP

 

[gamerprinter]

Rape, incest, and child abuse are my taboos. For whatever that's worth.

Agreed, to a point.

I don't want to graphically replicate the detailed description of a rape occuring. However, I have thoughts on presenting a female ghost of a young woman who killed herself, after her abusive boyfriend, a kyodai (big brother) in the local yakuza submits her to the wiles of the younger shatei (little brothers) of the gang in a mass rape incident as a form of initiation.

She could provide clues that the PCs need, while revealing her plight and her need for redemption, in the slaying or incarceration of those who committed the dark deeds against her.

I would include such a circumstance as a possible plot hook in an upcoming supplement.

GP