Horror - how dark is too dark?

[delericho]

You really have to talk to your players. Some groups will be happy with "anything goes", while for some even PG-13 could be too much. Tastes just vary too much.

Worse, people have different thresholds for different things. It's entirely possible that a player might not bat an eyelid at incest or rape in the game, but absolutely freak out the moment you introduce a giant spider!

As for my own tastes: I went through a spell (a decade or more ago) when I was never able to get the game dark enough for my liking. (Frankly, BoVD was a joke.) After more than a year of continued efforts, I finally got to that point... and found that I had made the game essentially unplayable. These days, I'll take my darkness in small doses, thanks, and keep the graphic stuff implied. Forces me to be more clever anyway...

 

[S'mon]

Personally I think you should put the NC-17 label on your product.

 

[RainOfSteel]

Fair warning: Horror is not my thing.

I don't want to have to introduce a labeled 'NC17' product.

For my purposes, you would have to do a re-write to get it below NC-17.

I don't know your players, but I hope you do, and if they're fine with this sort of thing, then go ahead.

How far is too far, or how far is just short of too far...

You're description already went too far for me.

I looked up the Imprint episode you mentioned, and found its from the Masters of Horror series. Showtime wouldn't air it for disturbing content. When the pay channels turn it aside, you need to think about it.

 

[The Shaman]

I don't want to graphically replicate the detailed description of a rape occuring. However, I have thoughts on presenting a female ghost of a young woman who killed herself . . .

I would not find anything entertaining in this, as a player or a referee, but I wouldn't worry about it too much - I'm in no way your target audience.

 

[Rechan]

Some of this stuff is in the game and no one bats an eye until there's a spotlight put on it. Violence is all over D&D; players kill enemies, it's nothing new. For the longest time, Half-Orcs came from rape. That's just all there was to it - everyone accepted that was the origin of the majority of half-orcs. However when you drag it out into the light of day "Oh yes this ghost killed herself after being abused", that's not going to scare people, it's going to make them sad and uncomfortable.

Gore/body horror isn't so much "Horror" as it is "disgusting and gross". One of the reasons I find J Horror more tedious than not. Horror (at least to me) comes from the anticipation that something bad is about to happen, even if you're not sure what. It's hard to pull that off in a written adventure since it's very atmospheric.

Two important quotes by Stephen King on this: ""The 3 types of terror: The Gross-out: the sight of a severed head tumbling down a flight of stairs, it's when the lights go out and something green and slimy splatters against your arm. The Horror: the unnatural, spiders the size of bears, the dead waking up and walking around, it's when the lights go out and something with claws grabs you by the arm. And the last and worse one: Terror, when you come home and notice everything you own had been taken away and replaced by an exact substitute. It's when the lights go out and you feel something behind you, you hear it, you feel its breath against your ear, but when you turn around, there's nothing there..." " "I recognize terror as the finest emotion and so I will try to terrorize the reader. But if I find that I cannot terrify, I will try to horrify, and if I find that I cannot horrify, I'll go for the gross-out. I'm not proud."

IMO it's better to be more subtle about those dark elements, rather than paint the walls with them. Also in terms of horror I agree with the above poster about 'tainted food/parasites'. There are certain elemental, instinctive vulnerabilities that we all have and something that threatens us during those times really gets at us (the movie Paranormal Activity is a good example, because it's about things happening when you're at your most vulnerable: asleep).

Zombie children is nothing new though.

Also agreed about knowing your players. I once had an insane female NPC, so I decided that hey, it would be interesting if she was insane because she had a miscarriage and couldn't handle the loss. This was mentioned Briefly in a diary the PCs found. After the session was over, a female player told me that she was upset, that I was immature and had no idea what I was talking about. She came back the next game session, but it really bothered me; I never thought it would be a problem for anyone, and I wasn't just hanging it out there, it was a bit of background.

 

[gamerprinter]

I looked up the Imprint episode you mentioned, and found its from the Masters of Horror series. Showtime wouldn't air it for disturbing content. When the pay channels turn it aside, you need to think about it.

Oh, I did say, Imprint, went too far by my standards too, I wouldn't go the path taken there. I wouldn't expect the pay channels to show it either. Nothing like that will appear in my products.

The setting is indeed horror, though. The point of encountering the bad is that the PCs can set things right, lift the curses, lay the ghosts to rest, punish the wicked. It isn't a gorefest with the intent of just being disturbing, there are many lesser horrors as well as many opportunities to play in an enchanted oriental setting that isn't always horrible - but horror does come to play.

Honor and Karma are built into the setting, with intentions that the PCs are seeking to bring honor upon themselves and their ancestors, while building karma that affect their afterlife. There's plenty of normal cultural adventures in a feudal Japan-inspired setting with warring samurai, sneaking ninja, skulking shape-changers and folklore beings.

The setting includes elements of anxiety, dread, terror and horror - the back story is dark, and encounters of darkness whether oni demons, yurei ghosts, cursed beings, or just generally nasty people make life unpleasant. But there are paladins, exorcists and other elements of good (hopefully including the PCs) trying to keep the evil in check.

There are lots of roleplaying opportunity, its not all combat. Its not all darkness.

 

[nedjer]

The intention of your OP is to avoid going too far, so you're more self-regulating than me to start with. There are also all sorts of arguments about whether or not such topics should be hidden from view.

I just wonder, given your already successful and family-friendly RPG business, whether one product is worth even a tiny risk of brand toxicity?

 

[InVinoVeritas]

I prefer to shoot for PG-13 myself. I won't shy away from bad things, but I refuse to revel in them.

Here's an example of one of my favorite posts from my horror campaign right here:

[sblock=Spoilered for length]

Sasha casts a sidelong glance at Torhan. "Pity... it's from Borca, and quite good." She sighs as she puts her glass down.

"Alek's the eldest son of the Combledorn family," Sasha begins. "They run the gnomes' black market. Smuggling, assassinations, you name it. If you need it and can't get it, the Combledorns have it."

* * *​

Darian raises the key. The smoky air fills with muffled shouts and clanking chains.

* * *​

"We first met when Alek got me a job as a dancing girl. The place was rough, and there were a lot of humans there... I learned a lot about what humans like... Right. Sorry, officer. Anyway, Alek showed up about a month ago, selling some new pink crystal he called 'Love.' It was, um, more powerful than he expected." Sasha mindlessly rubs her shoulder. "He installed metal bars on stage the very next day."

* * *​

Calahan slowly walks over to the madman and hits him with the knuckle of his kukri, dry and hard. "Keep quiet, bastard, or I will cut your ears." The madman does not stop his thrashing.

* * *​

"Love was the big new thing at the club. You take it, fall in love. The next day, you fall out of love. It's a beautiful, terrible thing." Sasha fixes her gaze on Torhan's eyes. The look there is fearful, guilty. "You'll do anything while you're in love. Anything. Like wear a mask he gives you as your new face. I suppose I was lucky, though. I got to keep my hands."

* * *​

The madman starts shaking his head back and forth, in a desperate attempt to avoid the key. Calahan grabs the beak at the tip and tugs hard, reminding him who's in control.

"Looks like you found what the bird's afraid of, Darian," Ru says.

* * *​

"He called us his 'pets.' He kept us in line by holding onto all the keys himself. If you wanted to talk, to eat, to drink, almost anything really, you had to do as he said. And never get caught. Because he also gave us this."

Sasha reaches between the scarves of her outfit and pulls out a small silver key. "It's not a key to anything. And if you try to take the mask off with it..."

* * *​

Calahan holds up the mask. Darian slides the key into the lock and turns the key with a *click.*

The madman screams in abject terror.

"Wait..." Fr. Berman calls, realizing something is wrong.

* * *​

"...it explodes."

* * *​

BOOM!
Shards of the bird-mask fly into and through Darian and Calahan. Ru, caught off guard and still smarting from earlier, fails to fall out of the way of the hot debris. Fr. Berman manages to get a cloaked arm up in time to deflect some of the bloody shrapnel, but is still hit. He slowly lowers his arm to see his companions, lying in shock, covered in blood and ceramic, stunned by the event. The madman is far, far less fortunate.

* * *​

Sasha starts at the sound. "Garl, what was that?"

[/sblock]

 

[Ettin]

Also agreed about knowing your players. I once had an insane female NPC, so I decided that hey, it would be interesting if she was insane because she had a miscarriage and couldn't handle the loss. This was mentioned Briefly in a diary the PCs found. After the session was over, a female player told me that she was upset, that I was immature and had no idea what I was talking about. She came back the next game session, but it really bothered me; I never thought it would be a problem for anyone, and I wasn't just hanging it out there, it was a bit of background.

"A miscarriage is definitely not a joke, and I have no intention of making light of it. And it can be a tough and emotional thing for couples to go through, speaking from personal experience. And I know that it's often much harder on the woman than on the man. However, I also know that it doesn't necessarily turn you into a sad, depressed sack of tears for the rest of your life. People can move past it, and heal."

B^U

EDIT: Wait:

She could provide clues that the PCs need, while revealing her plight and her need for redemption, in the slaying or incarceration of those who committed the dark deeds against her.

In what way would the victim need to be "redeemed"?

 

[Mark CMG]

This might be of interest -

River of Blood - Ghwiki


Perhaps Erik can comment on if PF standards would allow something like the content of the early LG work, which IIRC WotC decided to discontinue distributing to LG gamers, at least in its original form.