Horror - how dark is too dark?

[gamerprinter]

That's how it is to you, in your head, sure because you're the creator. But ultimately it's going to be how those that read the product take it.

Well, I'm not the only designer, and it has been playtested by a half dozen groups, as well as a read through at least by many reviewers - so its not just in my head, but in our collective heads.​

This entire thread is "Hey you guys is this too much?" "Yes" "But it's not like that! It's ok!" "Still too much." "But it's not like that".

Because it isn't that way yet. I'm exploring on further development and the possibility of going deeper into the darkness. As it stands right now, the setting and adventures are dark, but PG13 or lower in graphic description.​

The OP question is whether going further is desireable, and how far is too much. The current game is just enough to be scary and fun.​

So "its not like that" is an accurate response - but it could be... is the consideration.

But for those who do not like horror, it could certainly be too much now - horror isn't for everyone.​

GP​

 

[Spinachcat]

There will be blood...

I run psycho gory horror games and my players have a blast. My players know my style and at conventions, I put warnings in the blurbs. Of course, they are not really warnings, but adverts to players who love psycho gory horror games and I never worry about finding players.

There is an audience for strong graphic horror in RPGs. The question is whether they are your audience and whether you can create something that appeals to them.

With Japanese horror, you already limit your audience to people who are interested in J-horror so your product should be A+ pleasing to those fans. Watering down the J-horror just turns it into a lame Hollywood remake.

BTW, if anyone has not seen the "Imprint" episode of Masters of Horror on DVD, I highly recommend it if you enjoy horror movies. Great stuff. And also pick up "On and Off a Mountain Road" and "Cigarette Burns" from the MoH series too!

 

[gamerprinter]

Well, I finally watched Imprint. While the subject matters of incest, birth defects, abortion, prostitution, child abuse and torture were unseemly, it seemed more 'in bad taste' than 'hot button issues' for me - I didn't really find the movie horrifying at all. Really it was just kind of grotesque.

I had to fast forward past the torture scenes though - a bit too graphic for my taste. Once the first needle got stuck beneath the girl's fingernail, its shock value point was made to continue showing it being done to every finger - nothing I really wanted to see again. Then the needles going into the girls gums. I felt it was disgusting, not really horror factor.

So I'll stay content at the levels of horror I am pursuing now as the best. Its scary and hinting at dark things, not full exposure of gross out.

Just wanted to close this thread, with the realization that I finally seen the movie in question. It's subjects are not suitable for my setting.

 

[lynnfredricks]

I am developing Kaidan: a Japanese Ghost Story setting for Pathfinder. In my research for horror concepts of the east, I am discovering many ideas that while form typical horror content in the east, might be considered very uncomfortable for a western audience. So I ask myself, "How dark is too dark?" or "How far can I go, yet still know I haven't crossed the line?"

Takashi Miike is hardcore horror/gore - he's the outsider of Japanese film. I would set aside anything and everything he does.

I think you need to examine the scope of "adventuring" first. Consider these two:

- It is a time of civil war (heh-heh). With various provinces at war with each other, you can end up with the uncanny, unnatural or amoral preying on the weak. Rewatch Rashomon. Japanese social norms are in a sort of limbo. Ghosts, Kappa and other critters feel more free to encroach.

-That's just not right (Tokugawa Bakufu / "Shogun" era). The time of severe social stratification, norms, expectations of what is right, wrong, shameful or not. Also a time where the court is looking north to the wilderness there, or perhaps seeking to dominate nearby countries, islands and other places. And then, there are those foreigners pushing their foreign ways, religion and firearms through that one port we give them access to. This is an excellent "witchfinder" period.

I think to make this setting work, you need to encapsulate the experience of native PCs, be they court/samurai or common people. Types are not going to mix, not unless you jumble them together into a shared, horrific experience.

Modern movie horror is a distraction. You dont need to go that way.

 

[Fox Lee]

Regarding the OP, I don't think any of the examples there are too dark. Even the ones that you say are too dark. If I was going to give you advice, it would mostly be along the lines of "don't resort to girls/children whenever you need a victim", because I get really tired of that - I feel like it's a cheap grab for an artificially deeper impact.

As you can probably tell by now, I don't care for horror. I don't really get "scared" by stories; my natural response to to be grossed out or turned off, but not actually terrified. But if you're going to do horror, I don't think you should hold back. Let it be what it is. Slap the NC-17 label on it and be proud (censorship standards are often bizarrely stupid anyway).

...But if there is a "too far" point, you might find that it's animal torture. Humans have a pretty profound response to that.

Well, I finally watched Imprint. While the subject matters of incest, birth defects, abortion, prostitution, child abuse and torture were unseemly, it seemed more 'in bad taste' than 'hot button issues' for me - I didn't really find the movie horrifying at all. Really it was just kind of grotesque.

<SNIP>

So I'll stay content at the levels of horror I am pursuing now as the best. Its scary and hinting at dark things, not full exposure of gross out.

Wait, is the issue about gross-out and graphical obscenity more than actual horror? Okay then, I would advise to hold back on that heavily. As you say, it's just bad taste for the sake of bad taste, and that's more grotesque than horrifying.

Let's look at it like porn (I know, but stick with me here!). A good movie with a romantic subplot might hint heavily at sex - maybe even have a sex scene, in the typical M15+ style. Going fully into detail there would screw the film's rating, of course, but what's more important is that it would totally derail the story. As appealing as it might be to some viewers, it would ruin the pacing of the overall work and be rather gratuitously wasteful in the long run.

I think the same is true of horror. If you show that something horrible is just about to happen - or maybe show the very beginning of that horrible event before you cut to another scene - it can be better for pacing, and create more fear in the audience. Let them imagine exactly what happened - they will almost certainly understand what is implied, and chances are they can make it worse in their own mind than you can by showing it to them. The ambiguity means the true horror of the scene is limited only by the audience's imagination.

On the other hand, if you show the whole grisly affair as a play-by-play, it's just gross for the sake of being gross. It's incredibly difficult to write/direct without it seeming clumsy, tedious or fetishistic (or all three), plus it offsets the pacing and structure in the same way that the sex scene would. What I'm saying is, detailing a horror scene like that makes it what the sex scene is to the first movie - just plain gratuitous. I guess that's why they call it "gore porn" ^^;

 

[Ahnehnois]

...But if there is a "too far" point, you might find that it's animal torture. Humans have a pretty profound response to that.

This is true; I would extend it to say that violence against defenseless targets (including but not limited to animals) is generally considered very disturbing and grossly malign.

You'd better think carefully before you go there, but some classic horror has (Edgar Allen Poe and The Black Cat, for one).

 

[gamerprinter]

Noroi: the Curse

On the other hand, I just watched Noroi: the Curse on youtube - it was a 'documentary' styled movie with subject matter from just the right period, although told from a modern point of view. I thought this too had it gross moments, but really was a quite scary experience.

Inugami is an ancient Japanese sorcery practice involving the slaying of a starving dog, kept on a leash, involved in a deliberate spirit possession ritual. Although the movie doesn't specifically say it's an inugami ritual, I recognized it right away. The village in the movie doing this was attempting to appease a powerful demon that was summoned and lost 'containment' 200 years ago. The village raises the dogs specifically for the ritual.

This is a far better, horror tale I can easily see made into adventure material. I expected a ghost story by the name, but as a demon possession and folk witchcraft story it was far more interesting.

 

[GreyLord]

Agreed, to a point.

I don't want to graphically replicate the detailed description of a rape occuring. However, I have thoughts on presenting a female ghost of a young woman who killed herself, after her abusive boyfriend, a kyodai (big brother) in the local yakuza submits her to the wiles of the younger shatei (little brothers) of the gang in a mass rape incident as a form of initiation.

She could provide clues that the PCs need, while revealing her plight and her need for redemption, in the slaying or incarceration of those who committed the dark deeds against her.

I would include such a circumstance as a possible plot hook in an upcoming supplement.

GP

That's a little too far....

There are other elements of Japanese horror beyond erotic horror or what one may find in Pink films.

Look to Japanese Mythology...witches were especially horrific in Japanese Horror. So were other creatures of the night. Curses were perhaps the most feared item...not killers, not rapists...but curses. Nothing like being cursed to be turned into a ghoul by the witch that you upset...and then vanished before you could stop her...only to find out that this witch is now your child who is slowly stalking you in certain ways to tear at your mind...with the only way out to make someone else a ghoul...

And then when you think you are safe and found a way to do it...only find out it was a ruse...the curse is still in effect...and poof...you're living undead.

And that's only the tip of what these curses did. Families fell, houses were destroyed...and these in horrific manners. A single curse from a witch could actually cover an entire campaign. Witches were pretty feared.

There are other elements almost as fearful...ghosts...demons...and their portrayal makes Western Horror look pleasant by comparison.

The item of Noroi that you just posted above sounds much more acceptable for a RP element in my tastes than what you listed at the beginning of the thread. One is more in line with a Pink Film plot, whilst the other is more in line with what sounds to be Horror.

 

[gamerprinter]

The item of Noroi that you just posted above sounds much more acceptable for a RP element in my tastes than what you listed at the beginning of the thread. One is more in line with a Pink Film plot, whilst the other is more in line with what sounds to be Horror.

Eh, I'm not into pink films. But the above mentioned raped woman is not the plot of the supplement, rather a ghost you discover and during the research to find out what killed her the rape incident is revealed and the perpetrators are still alive need to be sought and brought to justice.

So at no time does the rape become an event that the reader witnesses. It becomes known after-the-fact, and gives the party reason to pursue the criminals and bring them to justice.

Its already been included as a one line description in a supplement - it is not a detailed 'adventure', just a clue provided for an encounter exploration.

The inugami plot is something I want to develop for the next project.

There already exists 3 adventures as the Curse of the Golden Spear mini-intro arc (already published and released as of Gen Con). So some of the plot ideas mentioned are already included. There is a haunted country inn (actually one of the scariest/creepiest encounters you're likely to see in an adventure) as well as finding the killing zone of a particular serial killer - both in the first adventure. Much of the second and third adventure is trying to survive while escaping the wrath of a certain provincial daimyo wanting the PCs dead.

I'm actually waiting for the Jade Regent AP from Paizo to be fully released, before I begin work on the next set of adventure material - so as not to compete directly with Paizo's oriental campaign. At the same time however, we are releasing various monster PC class books and faction books: yakuza, samurai, shinobi, shrine and temple, tools of the shogunate - all of which are usable supplements for the Jade Regent AP, although designed for use in Kaidan. After the AP is fully released, I will begin work on a proposed 'ransom project' for a full 1st - 16th (or 20th level) full adventure path for Kaidan local PCs to fully explore Kaidan. That project won't begin until at least January 2012.

 

[Zelda Themelin]

I like my games really dark. Too much so for most peoples. But it's ok, I can play with those 2 who share almost equal liking/endurance for it. Or write a story myself or read some comic maybe. I call things like BoVE utterly lame, though some spells made nice min-max stuff, so there was some fun out of it.

I was raised to my roleplaying maturity through games of warhammer fantasy/40 000 as rpg with lot of chaos themes. Including really perverted ones.

So I am kinda liking creepy things and evil things and power.

I like sexual themes in rpg:s, but not to excess. Or maybe more often pleasure as evil thing. I prefer horror and terror and things beyond the known spheres. I was burn out of whole "humanity horror" during 90:s WoD phase. Yawn, boring. I never liked vampires anyhow, they are too much like elves and I hate elves.

Too much dark IMO are angst-gamers, who think it's really cool to play characters who fail all the time and then rpg whines how their life suck. My old WoD groups got converted into those mostly. I don't like uncool failure stuff. And I think there always should be be concencus for what kinda games are suitable for different people.

I play with few groups and they come with quite different preferances. So when I dm to people who don't share my preferances I just run modules (pathfinder mostly).

All in stories of imagination though, in real life, I am quite nerdy chaotic lazy personality.