Horror - how dark is too dark?

[Zelda Themelin]

That picture is kinda cool. However that critter based on looks makes me think cool familiar. It's kinda cute in way that makes some people have chills. I now want one for my alienist. And it doesn't look angry, it seems to be smiling.

 

[Janx]

While in that context, it seems like an odd idea, at the same time, that was pretty much the impetus behind the toys in Toy Story being frightening to that one kid, right?

And "the West" doesn't have monolithic views on sex, marriage and whatnot. There's an awful lot of variety.

In my opinion, good horror is less about the concept of the monster than it is about the execution of the horror elements, though. And that's the part of it that translates across cultures pretty universally, IME.

I can grok that. The umbrella monster is scary because it's a monster that just jumped out at me, not because it's really an angry spirit that transmogrified from an umbrella.

The origin of the spirit is a clue to killing it (or running away), and not relevant to the fact that it has bitten my arm, and that kind of hurts.

Since your building a j-horror product for gamers, more gamers are familiar with other cultures, so I don't think its going to be a huge problem. Not that the average joe-gamer who watches anime will actually know all this stuff, but that he will be receptive to it, and probably interested in digging into the origin of the monster as a part of play.

Whats probably more important an issue, in your game setting, is the possibility of victory. In most horror (game or not), the protagonists lose. That's not the American Way.

This is why in Supernatural, the Winchester boys kill the BBEG at the end of nearly every episode.

When CoC came out, it was probably one of the first games where loss of character almost turned into the point (comically so in some circles).

I suspect that guarranteed defeat for each session would turn things to be pointless, and diminish the horror.

Whereas, like CoC was designed, the goal of the PC is to survive the horror, though each act they take can come at a cost (sanity). So you might survive the episode, but not the campaign.

Your mileage may vary, but I suspect you've got the themes nailed down and they'll probably work on an american gamer audience.

 

[gamerprinter]

Well, my Kaidan products as a Japanese inspired horror is definitely niche, so it certainly won't appeal to everyone. My main targetted market are those playing Pathfinder now, who have either played Oriental Adventures or Ravenloft in past editions and desire a new treatment in those genres. Plus Asian horror hasn't been an especially developed genre in RPGs, so my setting intends to take gamers to uncharted territory.

Whether I attract enough attention to be truly viable as a commerical product, only time will tell. I have no expectations to take a major foothold in the gaming market, I just hope to pay for its cost, and earn some profit beyond, at least enough to get me to continue to create products for RPGs. That's my real goal.

 

[gamerprinter]

Whats probably more important an issue, in your game setting, is the possibility of victory. In most horror (game or not), the protagonists lose. That's not the American Way.

This is why in Supernatural, the Winchester boys kill the BBEG at the end of nearly every episode.

When CoC came out, it was probably one of the first games where loss of character almost turned into the point (comically so in some circles).

I suspect that guarranteed defeat for each session would turn things to be pointless, and diminish the horror.

Whereas, like CoC was designed, the goal of the PC is to survive the horror, though each act they take can come at a cost (sanity). So you might survive the episode, but not the campaign.

Your mileage may vary, but I suspect you've got the themes nailed down and they'll probably work on an american gamer audience.

While my Kaidan setting has your variety of Japanese ghosties and ghoulies, in addition to exotic monster races, demon types. It also has an overpowering empire ruled by undead, caused by the ancient curse that brought Kaidan into existence. The real horror element where Kaidan stands apart from other horror settings is not losing every session. This is 'D&D', so winning encounters with monsters is something not removed from the game. Rather, PC Death and forced reincarnation into a doomed cycle of trapped souls is where the true horror lies.

If you're not a local from Kaidan, you can enjoy all forms of fun horrific excursions into the setting and never be truly 'damned' unless you die while in Kaidan - then you are trapped. Kaidan's cosmology and the dark powers that govern it utilize the souls of the living and the dead to drive it's engine of evil.

As long as you avoid PC Death - you can still win. If you die, you reincarnate and most likely your soul will subvert another living being in a kind of spiritual possession where you become that new person, and that body's previous owner is slain forcing reincarnation elsewhere as an endless chain of possession and death. This is what Kaidan is really all about.

 

[Janx]

While my Kaidan setting has your variety of Japanese ghosties and ghoulies, in addition to exotic monster races, demon types. It also has an overpowering empire ruled by undead, caused by the ancient curse that brought Kaidan into existence. The real horror element where Kaidan stands apart from other horror settings is not losing every session. This is 'D&D', so winning encounters with monsters is something not removed from the game. Rather, PC Death and forced reincarnation into a doomed cycle of trapped souls is where the true horror lies.

So this is basically Japanese Ravenloft. that is a special realm of horror, with a japanese flavor.

Is this a D&D fantasy setting (well presumably feudal japan) or a modern setting (ala Buffy goes to Japan)?

Having the whole realm be a sinkhole trap is a turn off for me. I didn't like Ravenloft for that point that it was basically a PC blackhole that you really couldn't escape unless your GM let you.

This differrs from regular horror, where most people go on about their lives, and have normal deaths. But for some reason, the protagonists have become involved with the horror, and it is trying to destroy them. Success means the PCs can go back to their normal lives (until the next episode when a new horror finds them).

the problem with Ravenloft, is your basically screwed. If you end up there, and somehow survive the current episode, you still haven't escaped and you will be screwed again.

In any episodic campaign, the PCs are going to get screwed, but the difference in non-Ravenloftian games, success at the end FEELS like you are free of the problem. Ravenloft simply means you've lived another day.

 

[gamerprinter]

Its a feudal Japan like setting, not a modern setting.

Unlike Ravenloft you can go to Kaidan, and leave when you are done - unless you die while in Kaidan. While it isn't impossible to escape once you die and reincarnate, but it is difficult to do so. In a sense, when you die, you retain most of your memories of your previous life in your new body/life, as well as gaining memories of the person you reincarnated into. In a sense, you don't 'die' at all - but live on eternally multiclassing through multiple lifetimes.

While you can't planeshift, go astral, ethereal, nor be able to teleport out of Kaidan. You can get on your ship and sail out - the same way you got there. Kaidan isn't Ravenloft, if you don't physically go to Kaidan, you won't be sucked into like you would by Ravenloft standards. If you never choose to go to Kaidan, you can't get stuck there.

A special religious sect knows an esoteric way to escape the trap of Kaidan, but it is considered heretical and kept hidden. In a full AP set in Kaidan, the endgame is finding this heretical sect and getting out of the trap.

In the introductory mini-arc The Curse of the Golden Spear, the PCs are outsiders from a typical 'western european' analog or their normal campaign world and Kaidan exists as a mist shrouded set of islands out in the ocean somewhere. They come to Kaidan to delivery a powerful magic item while accompanying a merchant doing business with a local Kaidan lord. At the end of the mini-campaign the entire party gets to escape and return home. However, PC Death can still lead into the trap that is Kaidan.

While some ideas compare to Ravenloft, Kaidan isn't Ravenloft and the rules are completely different.

 

[Zelda Themelin]

I like reincarnation cycle of the damned thing. Kult actually had something very similar in a sense. Though rest of flavor feels different here.

I kinda liked oriental adventures. I played few years back 3rd editon campaing all the way to lv 22 with 8 players. It kinda hold together very well. And characters got played differently than in regular D&D. With other honor and karma stuff we also had really unfair caste based loot-distribution-format. Of course magic got shared differently as our samurai's woudn't touch other weapon but their legacy swords.

It borrowed some stuff from Rokugan. Interesting game.

That said, I am not found Ravenloft. The whole name... And all "dark lords" are more or less ripped from polular chiches/movies. There was few interesting takes but. Some Ravenloft modules were really good, though. There was IMO much cool stuff in it, but basic concept and name of setting and major movers and shakers were bit DOH.

The good thing was that you could escape Ravenloft. It was hard, and likely you get corrupted before that happens, but it was possible. That made it more fun land, than one world called Midnight. It was just fun-sucking "you will loose" eventually setting. However Dm can easily turn Ravenloft into evil wins no matter what-trap.

I think you might want to create some built in escape possibility or way to become untaintable pure reincarnating hero or something like that. I think personal victories should be possible for game to be enjoyable to most people and "damnation traps" eat up your motivation to play as good guy and instead looking for best-paying corruption possibilities. Or you might not just want to play it.

Giving window to save the whole world is not needed, but some points of light and warded villages and other havens are needed so there is reason to fight the good fight. After all everybody dies eventually exept ageless immortals and unliving horrors.

And if dying is means losing, every one loses, eventually. Or have you thought there is change for yet untainted spirit leave and maybe even save some damned while at it. Because that would make it much more attractive. You could create stories where some pc:s enter Kaiden to save somebody who ended up there.

 

[Zelda Themelin]

Ah. But can you take trapped people with you once you leave. I would like something like this, cause it would make nice adventure. Not some heretical esoteric way. I mean some specific quest that varies from spirit to spirit. To reverse the taint that keeps them unable to leave.

I might be interested, I like creepy spirit lands and I play pathfinder games.. so.

 

[gamerprinter]

Ah. But can you take trapped people with you once you leave. I would like something like this, cause it would make nice adventure. Not some heretical esoteric way. I mean some specific quest that varies from spirit to spirit. To reverse the taint that keeps them unable to leave.

I might be interested, I like creepy spirit lands and I play pathfinder games.. so.

Sure you can. But once you die in Kaidan, even if you leave sometime in your next life, whenever you die elsewhere you will reincarnate into a new body in Kaidan - that's the trap.

In Buddhism, the goal is to achieve enlightenment. If you do not your soul is trapped in the Wheel of Life - 6 distinct hells in which the world we live in now is one of those hells. The Wheel of Life is existence in Kaidan, but a bit more convoluted. The Japanese social caste system reflected in Kaidan as the noble, samurai, commoner, animal and tainted castes are five of those hells, with the sixth being a hell more similar to the Christian hell, actually one of the planes of the Abyss.

Depending on your accumulated karma point score (accrued through your deeds in life) + d20 roll (modified by possible related spells) determine where you go - in which caste will you reincarnate. Possibilities also exist as rebirth in a new born (become an NPC), sentenced to hell (become an NPC), become a yurei ghost (NPC or apply a ghost template to your PC).

In order to escape, one needs to attain enlightenment. The path to enlightenment is counter to the goals of the empire, so the powers that be do not want anyone to achieve enlightenment - thus enlightenment is heresy in Kaidan.

Enlightenment is the esoteric means of escaping. Attain it and you're permanently out of the cycle.

Since there is no 'dark powers' mechanic as in Ravenloft, the dark lords of Kaidan were determined at its foundation and consist of tragic figures in Japanese history (the losers of the Genpei War 1180 - 1185 AD). And the fictional provincial houses as branches of the Taira clan, or supporting factions of that losing side of that ancient war. The dark lords of Kaidan are already fixed, nobody can become a dark lord of Kaidan.

 

[RedTonic]

If you're going to use Buddhism as a basis, though, there is already a "rescuer" role built in: the Bodhisattva, the merciful one who postpones her own enlightenment in order to help others attain enlightenment. For example, in Japan, you have Kannon. She is also known as Guanyin, Avalokitasvara, the merciful one, the one observing the voice of the people. Allowing players to attain that role is something you could consider.