Horror - how dark is too dark?

[Janx]

It's too dark when you can no longer see where you're going.

Seriously, all this mamby pambying around about what americans will take.

I'm finishing off the last disc of Twin Peaks, the Fire Walk With Me movie.

America's tolerance and appetite for just about any sensitive topic increases year over year.

In 1990, Twin Peaks came out and was ABC's top rated show. A show about the murder of the Homecoming Queen who was also a hooker, cheating on two boyfriends, and was an incest victim.

That was 20 years ago. I think Americans can handle it now.

I do agree that you will get better effect to let the player's imagination fill in the blanks, than to overtly describe these events.

But the concept that Americans are too sensitve? Hogwash.

 

[Zelda Themelin]

I do agree that you will get better effect to let the player's imagination fill in the blanks, than to overtly describe these events.

But the concept that Americans are too sensitve? Hogwash.

I agree with you with first sentance.

But what comes to american style of rpg there still lingers some little issue. Violence is good, sex is BAD. And that's american. European rpg:s what I've played didn't shy away form that subject. It's after all related to quite important human passion and motivation. I use to play this rpg from Sweden named Kult. When american publisher got their hands on it they cencorerd few things away. Namely "God" being dead and some sexual elements.

I can totally understand understand not wanting play out details of gory killings, torture or having sex with someone.

But too much detail is different thing than...

Time after time reading some modeule with "bordello, pleasure palace", and instead of whores or releted things, you get to meet (really creepy) undead/ abarrations. Lust is more often than not translated into ugly thing wanting to suck your blood. In totally non-seductive way too.

I like creepy undead/aberrations a lot, it's not that. I just don't like that they are taking over every theme that should relate to little bit erotic. It doesn't make sense when Runelord of Lust (from pathfinder series) seems to the be only totally off from her stated sin, what comes to dungeon inhabitants (lust-spawns I am looking at you). And her chosen school was enchantements, yeh right.

I don't want carnal pleasures glorified in rpgs, i just want them to exist, being implied and hanging in background. Or then they get on creepy and monsterous side. let's say movie called "Dagon", for referance. Not an american movie mind you.

It's bit related to another issue, while comic-books got more mature/realistic what comes to character relationships and villains, D&D is still hanging at 70-80's. Villains are that way cartoonish more often than not.

Even with Twin Peaks or HBO, american morals are still getting in way of mature content. It's limited group of people having cable with HBO and watching showns like Rome or Borgians. Majority don't watch such shows.

Games are still considered for children. Nakedness in computer games gets censored more often than extreme violence. Sex is rated higher in mature angle than shooting and killing. It gets your game a mature stamp which mostly porn games have and that hurts sales really bad. And it can just be pair of t**s in one scene.

That's why in Dragon Age "romance" scenes characters had clothes on, and not too revealing clothes at that.

So most companies in america who make games/computer games don't want "for adults only" stamp. Because generally it's kids/teens/their parents that buy those games.


Slightly off-topic. But it boils down to this. No matter how dark is too dark or not too dark for you, or not enough for you, to publisher what matters is...


It's too dark, when it hurts the sales.

 

[gamerprinter]

In the end, this discussion was an intellectual exercise, meant to explore the concept of horror and its meaning to the general gaming audience. The mature subjects of the setting exist, but are kept in the background, never graphically exposed. Realizations of what is going on is revealed, but never in real time. PCs will tend to investigate what has already happened, then possible interacting with the evil denizens to combat them and put them to rest.

I'm sure that the materials won't be rated as mature subject matter. There is no cheesecake art involved - no blatant nudity, no use of obscene language, no references to western religion, no obvious sex scenes.

While the information provided is certainly fictional, it reflects beliefs and practices of ancient Japanese people as recorded in various collections and online sources. Its an exploration of what is considered dark to the east, and brought to western audiences in a game format.

 

[Zelda Themelin]

I think horror and sex got married in western culture.

At least it seems supernatural/vampire teen romance books got really popular. And they don't go all that much details as let's say 70s western horror porn books my uncle use to read, but detail about erotic tension and relationships and feelings of lust are described in detail. My sister likes to read teen romance, because they have relationship drama and erotic referances. She finds regular fantasy boring, because it usually ignores romantic relationships. She calls some of those books bad and childish but still find them more entertaing to read.

This might be very reason why most girls aren't into D&D. It lacks erotic tension, unlike WoD games back to 90s.

And in tv we have Vampire Diaries, that teenage werewolf thing, Secret circle (about witches) just started, Lost girl (succubus girl, series from Kanada, sis don't like it, so maybe it's targetted more for boys) and for adults there is HBO, True Blood with special mention.

Actual getting it on beyond hugs and kisses gets you very easily "Twilight-saga" treatment. Where the romance steps on the land of horror. Kinda like lesson of desire is good, doing it is bad.

And that is very similar to japanise storilines. Actually even in something like Urutsikodojii (spelling) it's pretty innocent when characters just lust and exchange kisses but when they get it on, it turns into hentai horror with monsters and tentacles.

Very repeating thing of horror/sex in japanise stories is having self control vr losing it. Losing self control has negative and often horrific concequences in japanise manga/anime generally, not just hentai or "blue". And self-control often equals power, and losing it means something/someone else gains power over you. Romantic use/abuse/drama is very common in regular manga/anime, except those meant for little boys under 10.

So I think western teeny supernatural books took whole romance good, romance bad, romance threat angle, more often found in japanise literature/games.

However hongkong movies often like to combine erotic with humour. Or violence for the matter. I used to watch lot of foreing movies during my 11 years of "Love and Anarchy" film festival.

That remains me, that too "dark" thing to most rpg players I know is lost of control. They hate when their character is feared/charmed/dominated. Especially if besides status effect you also describe it with some detail. Good way to really make player (not just character) to hate some npc/monster.

And sorry if I am taking this too far from purpose of this thread.

 

[Desdichado]

As you can probably tell by now, I don't care for horror. I don't really get "scared" by stories; my natural response to to be grossed out or turned off, but not actually terrified. But if you're going to do horror, I don't think you should hold back. Let it be what it is. Slap the NC-17 label on it and be proud (censorship standards are often bizarrely stupid anyway).

I don't see anywhere where censorship is the issue (a bizarrely misused and misunderstood word.) It's more about... market placement, I guess, if you will. I.e., if I do this, will I find that there is demand amongst gamers for such a game or not. Will I find that there is demand for that kind of book or movie.

Not whether or not some outside agency will oppose, edit, or ban the game.

...But if there is a "too far" point, you might find that it's animal torture. Humans have a pretty profound response to that.

Less so than to human torture.

I guess I'm not sure I'm following what seems to be one of the major gists of this thread. What exactly about Japanese horror conventions differs from western or American or whatever horror conventions? I'm not hugely into it, of course, but I've seen a few j-horror movies in the wake of the big wave of them that started with The Ring and The Grudge. In my experience, the effective ones aren't really any different than the effective western horror movies... other than that the actors are Japanese and the dialog and locations are Japanese. Effective supernatural horror seems to cross culturally boundaries and be pretty much the same, in my opinion.

 

[gamerprinter]

Honestly, lots of concepts that the Japanese find scary when compared to western thought is odd, not scary. But having a different background and a differing point of view some of the concepts of the east, goes counter to the west - based on different morals (of some things.)

So in the exploration of eastern horror concepts, I generally put the really odd stuff aside and focus on what is common in horror in both east and west, so it can be appreciated by the largest common denominator.

However, the more I look at Japanese movies, television and books that are translated to English, many of those 'odd' concepts are presented in such a way, that I think it could frighten a westerner as well. So I'm slowly bringing those concepts into my Kaidan setting.

I was curious to see just how the perceptions of eastern horror go with horror in general - that's why I started this thread.

Edit: just to touch upon the Japanese horror concepts I find odd, rather than scary. In Japan it is believed that anything crafted has an expected lifespan of normal durability. However, when something is discarded, not due to being too worn (as in not reaching its full lifespan), there are 'ghostly' or 'vengeful spirit' versions of those discarded objects.

The karakasa-obake, for example, is the vengeful ghostly spirit of a discarded umbrella (?!) I can't imagine any instance where an animated umbrella could be perceived as an object of horror to the west, as it is truly an odd concept.

Here's an artist's inception of the karakasa-obake created by Mark Hyzer (my primary monster illustrator). Although I didn't ask him to specifically create this illustration. After having created a dozen or so monsters, I gave Mark the freedom to find Japanese monsters he wanted to see illustrated and possibly brought to game format. This is one of those monsters he created without my direction...

Briefly looking at sex and horror, one has to understand that while prostitution, for example, is considered unseemly to the general public both east and west, prostitution isn't viewed the same. In old Japan, your wife is the mother of your children, the keeper of your household, yet was not considered the primary focus of sex in a given man's life. Sex was believed to be a necessary function to maintain a man's health, thus prostitution was the outlet to maintain this form of 'health'.

Homosexuality does not have the same negative connotations that the 'Christianized west' has. Not that that is bad thing, but the east views sex in a completely different light then the west - at least in regards to sex outside of marriage. Some things don't conceptually translate well.

 

[Janx]

Edit: just to touch upon the Japanese horror concepts I find odd, rather than scary. In Japan it is believed that anything crafted has an expected lifespan of normal durability. However, when something is discarded, not due to being too worn (as in not reaching its full lifespan), there are 'ghostly' or 'vengeful spirit' versions of those discarded objects.

The karakasa-obake, for example, is the vengeful ghostly spirit of a discarded umbrella (?!) I can't imagine any instance where an animated umbrella could be perceived as an object of horror to the west, as it is truly an odd concept.

Here's an artist's inception of the karakasa-obake created by Mark Hyzer (my primary monster illustrator). Although I didn't ask him to specifically create this illustration. After having created a dozen or so monsters, I gave Mark the freedom to find Japanese monsters he wanted to see illustrated and possibly brought to game format. This is one of those monsters he created without my direction...

that's a pretty scary umbrella monster. If that was chasing me, I'd run.

The japanese angry object spirit concept makes sense. It teaches taking care of your things and not being wasteful. it also teaches respect to the maker and the giver (think a child with no respect for the things their parent worked hard for).

I suspect though, the angry spirit would haunt the person who discarded it. Not sure why it would pursue anybody else.

As such, for gaming material, I wouldn't assume every object ever discarded turns into one of these. But certain objects, especially one treasured by the owner, but thrown away by another. The Velveteen Rabbit is sort of a variant of this concept.

 

[gamerprinter]

I suspect though, the angry spirit would haunt the person who discarded it. Not sure why it would pursue anybody else.

As such, for gaming material, I wouldn't assume every object ever discarded turns into one of these. But certain objects, especially one treasured by the owner, but thrown away by another. The Velveteen Rabbit is sort of a variant of this concept.

OK, let's get creative then. What if such an angry spirit object could be cognizant of people around it when they discard other objects, not having anything directly connected to the angry spirit itself.

Let's say that the angry spirit resides in the closet of a bedchamber of an inn or teahouse. Also, say a PC has finally gotten the funds to purchase an enchanted blade, having the past three levels used a non-masterwork sword. He has discarded that blade and now possesses his new +1 sword.

If the karakasa-obake in the near vicinity detects such an occurence, it could be possible for it to extend it's vengeance onto that person.

Think of The Grudge - the movie. The onryo 'vengeful spirit' has already caused the death of her husband, and the teacher whom she held a secret desire for, so as far as 'normal vengeance' goes the perpetrators of her condition are all dead. However, the angry spirit is still angry... anyone who moves into that house becomes the target of her dark attentions, not necessarily reserved to those that committed the acts that caused her state of ghostdom. 'Buffy' had nothing to with the ghost in life, but she and her boyfriend/husband (?) became the target throughout and at the end of the movie.

Japanese vengeance isn't necessarily reasonable. So maybe a karakasa-obake might chase you, despite not being the one that discarded it.

 

[Desdichado]

While in that context, it seems like an odd idea, at the same time, that was pretty much the impetus behind the toys in Toy Story being frightening to that one kid, right?

And "the West" doesn't have monolithic views on sex, marriage and whatnot. There's an awful lot of variety.

In my opinion, good horror is less about the concept of the monster than it is about the execution of the horror elements, though. And that's the part of it that translates across cultures pretty universally, IME.

 

[Zelda Themelin]

Ah. Japanise horror. It's indeed odd sometimes. And honestly, I don't understand the popularity. I think it's mostly that Japanese looks are interesting, and asian generally exotic. I think it's because they are different. And to some people, different feels cooler, little grass is greener in other side of the fence, I guess.

Common weird Japanese horror element seems to be long wet hair. Generally there seems to be fear of water going on.

As what comes to persections of horror there are some variation from country to country. It's not really just western vr. eastern. There are some distict differences between horror stories from Japan/China/Korea.

And if you have horror movie, which main scary point is "deep dark wood", it's not gonna be scary at all, and thus succesful where I live at (Finland). Blair witch movies etc. fell to that catagory.

Personally there are things that I woudn't like in rpg. Plot of movie names Seven is one such (and it's been done to me to, one dm was really into that movie, and he was really good with mood setting). Of course to make that really stomach turning experience it must come with really much details, which I consider tasteless anyhow, usually.

Phantasm I, II also made quite an scary impression on me when I was teen. Regular zombie stuff don't scare me at all.

If I want to push my sister's buttons I just have to introduce some animated dolls. She was hit bad with Chuckie movies when she saw them way too young.

I think most things that scare or strongly affect us come from childhood/teenage. Manga has become really popular with young girls/teens where I live. And people who end up getting influence from various cultural sources are going to have different ideas than young people from my period. I think it's come full circle. Now little girls here are reading stuff that little girls in japan read, not just group on nerdy guys like few years back. Of course some cultural weirdness gets (purposefully) lost in translation.

Honestly whole sexy vampire/demon is very much Japanese thing (they often are long haired feminine males). But western teen culture adopted it.
Some people hate changes in supernatural beasties and claim it's not traditional. Well, not at Europe. Fanciest we got was Bram Stoker Dracula. Blade then.
Then we had WW esque Underworld movies. Then it got kiddish, then teen girlish. And this is where we are now. Mmh movie Jennifer's body start with words "hell is a teenage girl".

Phases of whom is target audiance for horror seems to flow with decades bit like fashions.

What works in rpg is an different animal, because some ideas of horror don't work if pc:s are supposed to survive/not get corrupted extended times. Many scenarios work best one shot where everyone dies, or last survivers are faded to black while told that whle they think they are safe, the death is right now closing in on them too.

Things stop being scary when they are repeated too many times. It's true with experience of violence, the commoness, as well. Succesful horror in non-shorterm- games is spare use of creepy. Sure some players have specific buttons to push, but playing on those is being cruel in RL. If you want players get impressed to dark stuff, you either have to play it to general mood with constant small remainers, or hit them with some nasty surprise. Or if you have keen social eye, use your event when players are ripe aka have worked themselves up by stuff they imagine is going on.

Horror in D&D doesn't work with all groups. Some people don't get into mood at all, and some just plain hate it when you "backstab" them with something scary and get pissed. It's not even too dark thing. Some people just hate mixed genres or generally can't stand horror. And prepare not get your feeling hurted if some people are not impressed at all what you think are scary and don't even want to roleplay it.