Hostile Empathic Transfer - too powerful?

[Plane Sailing]

Since an empowered shocking grasp would only average 26 damage as a touch attack, and an augmented dissipating touch would only do 5d6.

This seems vastly overpowered (and I imagine that I'd see a lot of psywars using it - I know that Piratecats psywar does).

Glancing at the normal Empathic Transfer, I'd think that hostile empathic transfer would be more balanced if it was similarly 1d10hp per pp, so the base power would transfer 3d10hp, and this could be augmented up to 5d10hp (and benefit from maximise power and so forth).

(and Sej - an unaugmented fireball can't do 60 points damage in practice - the probability is far too small. You'd have to maximise it (6th level spell) to guarantee 60 damage. HET can guarantee 50 damage as a 3rd level power.)

regards,

 

[Piratecat]

My psiwarrior does, and it's not anywhere near as useful as I expected it would be. In order to make it worthwhile, I need to minimize my AC in order to get hit as much as possible. That's a dangerous game to play. On a scale of 1-10 where 5-6 is balanced, this has proven to be a 6 or 7 for me: nice when it works, I'm glad I took it, but only useful in one out of two or three fights.

And to be clear, the Complete Psionic DOES have errata for this power. They've basically rewritten it, along with powers like Astral Construct and the like. It should have shown up in the XPH errata instead, of course.

 

[Infiniti2000]

And to be clear, the Complete Psionic DOES have errata for this power. They've basically rewritten it, along with powers like Astral Construct and the like. It should have shown up in the XPH errata instead, of course.

Well, I for one only own the ExPH. Anything in a different book certainly can't be said to be errata for it, unless the CPsi actually says: "Consider this book errata for the EPH."

 

[Thanee]

My psiwarrior does, and it's not anywhere near as useful as I expected it would be. In order to make it worthwhile, I need to minimize my AC in order to get hit as much as possible.

Psychic Warrior with Combat Reflexes, Karmic Strike and Hostile Empathic Transfer?

It should have shown up in the XPH errata instead, of course.

Yeah, just like all those changes in Spell Compendium... guess they thought that it's cool to just change stuff upside down in some random book without even mentioning that the stuff in the original source isn't quite en vogue anymore.

Bye
Thanee

 

[KarinsDad]

Since an empowered shocking grasp would only average 26 damage as a touch attack, and an augmented dissipating touch would only do 5d6.

This seems vastly overpowered (and I imagine that I'd see a lot of psywars using it - I know that Piratecats psywar does).

Glancing at the normal Empathic Transfer, I'd think that hostile empathic transfer would be more balanced if it was similarly 1d10hp per pp, so the base power would transfer 3d10hp, and this could be augmented up to 5d10hp (and benefit from maximise power and so forth).

Empathic Transfer is not D10 per PP. It starts at 2D10 for 3 PP (or about 4 points per PP) and maxes at 10D10 for 7 PP (or 8 points per PP).

Vigor is 5 points per PP.

Neither of these require you to be damaged in order to use it. Plus, neither of these tend to put you in harms way.

Starting at 5th level, the average hit points of a Psion with 14 Con are:

5 24 = 5 per PP
6 28.5 < 6 per PP
7 33 < 7 per PP
8 37.5 < 8 per PP
9 42 < 9 per PP
10 46.5 < 10 per PP
11 51 = 10 per PP

So, a Psion tends to never get the full 10 per PP until 11th level and then rarely. This is the (typical) max damage this can do at these levels (shy of an Amulet of Health or Bear's Endurance cast on the Psion) and usually the damage is considerably less, both because the Psion typically has less damage than this and because opponents can save.

Granted, it is more useful for a PsyWar (who might have 10 more hit points at level 5 and 20 more at level 10) and could get full advantage out of it by level 8, but then again, PsyWars tend to be relatively wimpy using DC save powers against others to begin with (their main DC ability score Wisdom tends to be kind of low compared to spell casters and other psions since they need Str, Dex, Con; so the DC tends to be lower). And, there is the entire drop weapon, use power, pick up weapon issue for PsyWars that use weapon and heavy shield. So, this tends to work better for certain concept (e.g. two handed weapon) PsyWars.


Sure, this power can be more offensive than most other offensive touch attacks, but at the same time, you cannot use it all (or even most) of the time. Most of the time, especially for a Psion (who tends to not take a lot of damage), using it is a waste of an action. And, this power typically puts its users in harms way.

Another balancing factor for this is that it is a Telepath power. The core Telepath powers tend to be wimpy compared to powers of other Psions. So for Psions to get this, you need to use up a feat or be a Telepath.

Finally, the DC of this power does not increase when you augment it like other psionic powers. At higher levels, most of your opponents will save against this if you are a PsyWar (fewer if you are a Psion).


On paper, it looks like a great power. In the game (as PC has stated), the utility is less due to psionic characters tending to have high ACs and other advantages which tend to minimize how often this can be used. And, out of 4 Psions in our game, none of them have ever taken this power (course, we have never had a PsyWar in our game).

This power is overrated.

 

[Sejs]

Psychic Warrior with Combat Reflexes, Karmic Strike and Hostile Empathic Transfer?

And if you want to get annoying: Opportunity Power.

Stop hitting yourself! Stop hitting yourself!

 

[Egres]

Well, I for one only own the ExPH. Anything in a different book certainly can't be said to be errata for it, unless the CPsi actually says: "Consider this book errata for the EPH."

Play as you like, but accept it: they updated the powers.

The fact that they didn't put in the on-line errata is pretty meaningless.

 

[KarinsDad]

Psychic Warrior with Combat Reflexes, Karmic Strike and Hostile Empathic Transfer?

What would this do? The Karmic Strike attacks are simultaneous with the attack that caused them (i.e. the attack was already successful, but AoOs interrupt the actions that triggered them), so damage would not be calculated until after the Karmic Strike occurs. Even if you were threatening with Hostile Empathic Transfer itself, it would only go up to the amount of damage previously taken.

Purposely lowering your AC in order to force yourself to take damage does not seem like a sound tactic.

And if you want to get annoying: Opportunity Power.

Yes, you could use some of your Karmic Strike AoO attacks to do damage and one of them to do Hostile Empathic Transfer.

But, this is pricey.

It requires that you either fight with Unarmed Strikes, with a single one handed weapon and no shield, or with some form of PsyWar natural attack (e.g. Claws of the Beast). At least as DM, I would require dropping one end of a two handed weapon to be a free action like dropping a weapon and free actions cannot be done on anyone else's turn (so, you could not do this with a two handed weapon or with two weapon fighting).

And, it requires expending your psionic focus and takes up 11 PP each time you do it. An 11th level PsyWar might have 51 PP. That's 20+% for each cure up at the level a PsyWar can first do it (let alone all of the other things PsyWars use their PP for). Plus, it requires 4 (if you throw in Thanee's Combat Reflexes) of an 11th level PsyWar's 8 or 9 feats to accomplish, Int 13 and Dex 13 (obviously, it would be easier for a PsyWar to do this than a Psion).


Overall, this does not sound like a good tactic. I suspect that the PC Cleric will probably get annoyed at the PC PsyWar for purposely lowering his AC in this way since there will be a lot of times when the PsyWar finishes off his opponents without using up the 11 PP and psionic focus to cure back up.

 

[Savage Wombat]

The power has been errataed.

Check out the CPsionic.

The cap is 25, augmentable, now.

Thank you; I hadn't noticed the correction. And since I do have CPsi, I can use it.

 

[Nonlethal Force]

Play as you like, but accept it: they updated the powers.

The fact that they didn't put in the on-line errata is pretty meaningless.

Um, no. Sorry. You may play as you like with the books that you like and that's great!

But those of us who honestly thought the CPsi was not worth the price are still more than welcome to play with it as written in the XPH (and its errata, of course ... which is non-existant for this particular power).

Just because WotC puts out a new book does not make it "CORE." The statement of "like it or not..." is really the same as someone saying "Like it or not, you have to let in my variant sorcerer from the PHB II." If a person doesn't play with a book, they need not "like it or not." They are welcome to play with the books they think are worthwhile.

Sorry for the rant. I just felt this needed to be clarified. Please return to posting about whether this power is under/over-rated. I vote for much overrated and not a wise power for a psion in most circumstances. [Especially as it was pointed out to need to burn a feat for non-telepaths!] Marginally better for psi-warriors.