D&D General Hot Take: Dungeon Exploration Requires Light Rules To Be Fun

[bloodtide]

On "tedious" rooms: the most important resource in dungeon crawling is time, and empty or "tedious" rooms are there primarily to sap that resource. The expectation is that about half of apparently empty rooms will contain either a trap or a hidden treasure. Speeding through the empty rooms means potentially leaving a dangerous obstacle in your path on the way out (remember, traps only go off some of the time, usually a 2 in 6 chance),or missing out on treasure aka XP.

Presenting the "tedious" rooms as interesting is one of the most important skills of the dungeon crawl GM.

I'd also add finding items.

A lot of classic dungeon crawls do one of, or all three of: Resource Management, Resource Loss and MacGyvering Solutions. So things you might find in any room might have a use and be valuable.

 

[Aldarc]

If you are going to suggest 5E is a lighter game than B/X, I'm not sure there's much to discuss.

I said that "the dungeoneering exploration procedures of 5e are probably lighter than B/X because the former game doesn't really care about it like the latter does." This is to say that 5e doesn't really have rules for dungeon procedures. In contrast, B/X does have more dungeon exploration procedures and rules to support that. And look what I found:

Becuase 5E doesn't have much in the way of dungeon procedures, i am adapting the ones from earlier versions.

This appears to be you saying much the same as I did in my post. And yet you want to miscontrue my post in such an ungenerous way and get in a huff when I appear to be agreeing with you here?

 

[Reynard]

Who said anything about former use? That dungeon was using a literal real world castle map as a castle and outpost connected to the BBEG.

I think we are having a difference of opinion about what "dungeon crawl" means. In this thread I am using a pretty strict definition based around exploration of an Anomalous Underground Environment that doesn't necessarily translate to every sort of site based adventure.

 

[Reynard]

I said that "the dungeoneering exploration procedures of 5e are probably lighter than B/X because the former game doesn't really care about it like the latter does." This is to say that 5e doesn't really have rules for dungeon procedures. In contrast, B/X does have more dungeon exploration procedures and rules to support that. And look what I found:

This appears to be you saying much the same as I did in my post. And yet you want to miscontrue my post in such an ungenerous way and get in a huff when I appear to be agreeing with you here?

My thesis is that 5E, PF2E, and other games are, in total,too crunchy to provide a good dungeon crawling experience. That was pretty clear from the OP forward.

You should probably remember that we apply tone to posts ourselves, since text doesn't really convey tone well. So asserting I was in a "huff" is a reflection on how you saw the exchange, not me.

 

[Aldarc]

My thesis is that 5E, PF2E, and other games are, in total,too crunchy to provide a good dungeon crawling experience. That was pretty clear from the OP forward.

You should probably remember that we apply tone to posts ourselves, since text doesn't really convey tone well. So asserting I was in a "huff" is a reflection on how you saw the exchange, not me.

None of that changes the ungenerous reading you gave my post, Reynard. What good is lecturing me on tone when you won't even give my post the time of day to read it properly? How do you think that reflects on you?

 

[Staffan]

A Dungeon Crawl is distinct even from location based adventure because it centers the exploration element of play, largely navigation of the space. It's built largely around a spatial understanding of the the adventure rather then a narrative one. One could run a Dungeon Crawl in other genres - such as cyber-fantasy like Shadowrun, but the locus of play would need to remain exploration and the mechanics of the game would need to support that. I don't know if Shadowrun does (can't really say - I have only a passing familiarity, though since it's a 90's game I'd guess it's more scene/narrative based).

I think there's a hidden assumption on the part of some people about dungeon crawls: scale. At least for some of these people, this is what a small-ish dungeon crawl is supposed to look like:

Not this:

Under this model, a dungeon crawl is not just an assault on a fortified site filled with dangerous people and traps in search of some form of treasure. That one fits perfectly into many Shadowrun situations. But there needs to be an exploration element in the form of branching paths, hidden things, and the like, which you don't find in most Shadowrun heists. You certainly could have a Shadowrun adventure where you are exploring vast cavern networks, or a ruined arcology, or something like that, and get that exploration element in there, but it's not the norm. I also don't think Shadowrun would be a particularly good system for that sort of thing, because you kind of need attrition for that to work well, and Shadowrun doesn't do attrition particularly well.

 

[Reynard]

I think there's a hidden assumption on the part of some people about dungeon crawls: scale.

Right. A 5 Room Dungeon is a perfectly viable model for an adventure, but it isn't a dungeon crawl.

View attachment 375303

Nice map! Where is it from?

 

[Staffan]

Nice map! Where is it from?

It's the 3e version of the first level of the Sunless Citadel.

 

[pemerton]

I would estimate, for example, that the dungeoneering exploration procedures of 5e are probably lighter than B/X because the former game doesn't really care about it like the latter does. B/X dungeon exploration can be pretty involved

<snip>

Which is more rules light when it comes to dungeoneering play procedures and rules: 5e D&D or B/X D&D? Probably 5e D&D.

If you are going to suggest 5E is a lighter game than B/X, I'm not sure there's much to discuss.

So Reynard, do you think that 5e has "heavier" rules when it comes to dungeoneering play procedure? What are they?

 

[pemerton]

I didn’t know that, but it makes a lot of sense. I would love to play in a Torchbearer game some time.

You might be interested in this TB2e actual play thread: Torchbearer 2e - actual play of this AWESOME system! (+)

Also, Thor (the lead TB designer) made some comments in this thread, on my conversion of the T1 Moathouse, which might be interesting to anyone wanting to get a better handle on how Torchbearer does dungeon-crawling: T1 Moathouse adapted to Torchbearer