Hot to circumvent Discern Lies

[ùìéè äîáåê]

I want my campaign to have plenty of thieves, or at least thief guilds. But I have found thief guilds to be rather difficult ot maintain with Discern Lies and Zone of Truths at every corner. So I am looking for ideas on how to circumvent them. Anyone?

So far I have thought of creating a magic item based on Spell Immunity (to Discern Lies) that will grant total immunity for one day, but only towards actions relating to a particular deed. I call it the Altar of Lies, dedicated to the Prince of Lies: Cyric (its FR, and heavilty used by the Zhentarim, so it gives it a wide circulation). I could post it, if someone is interested. But it seems to be too expensive to be done truly in accordance to the rules, and besides too restrictive. So I'm looking for new ideas.

 

[Lazybones]

From the SRD, potions:

Glibness

This potion enables the imbiber to speak fluently and even to tell lies smoothly, believably, and undetectably for 1 hour (add +30 to Bluff checks). Even magic investigation, such as the discern lies spell, does not register the speaker’s lies as such.

Caster Level: 4th; Prerequisites: Brew Potion, spellcaster level 8th+; Market Price: 500 gp.

 

[Skarp Hedin]

I may not have examined the matter closely enough, but I found spells like that to be pretty powerful and potentially disruptive to a game that'll feature a lot of deceit and sneakery. I, personally, am either going to just remove the spells or else bump 'em up a couple three levels.

Note also: this thread may belong in House Rules, though it'll likely get more attention here in General

 

[Psychotic Jim]

Discern Lies just tells you if a person is lying. It does prevent a person from evading answering the question, or if he is not telling the whole story. You could ahve thiefs say things to dodge telling the truth, or tell just part of the truth. The description of the spell does not say anything about detecting missing information.

 

[ùìéè äîáåê]

The problem with potions is that...

Potions need to be drunk, and carried... so it's quite hard for a person to enjoy their blessing when the law cuffs him, and interrogates him in the next morning... I am hoping to find a more permament solution. But this is a great idea I hadn't thought of, thanks!

As for placement, if the moderators feel the thread should be moved, by all means move it. But as I am looking for ideas in general, not neccessarily new rules, I thought this board more fitting. If I was mistaken... well, no harm done

 

[Geoff Watson]

Don't use outright lies.

Bend the truth, give partial or incomplete answers, refuse to answer until you get a lawyer, be partially deaf so you mishear the question, don't know the important information (need to know), know false information (your buddies in the thieves guild told you, and you thought they were telling the truth).

Geoff.

 

[Crothian]

How common are the clerics? Do they actually work side by side with the local law enforcements? Many times what the god wants and what the law enforces are not exactly the same thing. Many churches would not freely help out the constables. So, is it really worth that much gold (20x caster level for zone of truth or 30/40 x caster level for discern lies). Personally, I have it that only known imporant criminals would get this type of treatment. Most of the lesser criminals you just lock up until you hang them or place them on the chain gang for the next 40 years.

 

[Victim]

You can also try the little known technique of "making the saving throw." Since Zone of Truth is an area spell, the caster can't tell if the subject resists it or not, drastically dropping the value. Discern Lies is already fourth level, requires concentration, has a save, and only works for a short time. Since the targets are getting saves, the spells are unreliable, and would probably just give an indication that something was up.

The spells aren't subtle, so they're essentially useful only on captured prisoners. People who get caught are stupid; stupid people shouldn't be told secrets. Compartmentalization of information and "need to know" are used by "secret" agencies - copy them. People who don't know anything can't spill their guts. Also, the spells don't force people to answer.

Of all the spells to worry about, Zone of Truth and Discern Lies are probably going to be the least useful for ferreting out a thieve's guild.

 

[hong]

To add to what the others said:

1) Everybody knows about the guild, and so finding out about it becomes irrelevant (although knowing who controls the action may still be important). The guild is all over the place, and has its fingers in all sorts of pies. This may even extend to knowing where the guild's HQ is, but actually storming the place is another matter.

2) Major power centers implicitly approve of the guild's existence. Perhaps they know that it keeps the lid on destructive turf wars, or is a major player in political intrigues, or is just too popular among the lower classes to eradicate (that whole Robin Hood thing). One way or another, the guild's continued existence is guaranteed, as long as it doesn't cause trouble.

3) Discern lies isn't that useful:
"Where is the headquarters of the thieves guild?"
"I don't want to answer that question."
It doesn't prevent evading the question, or not answering the question at all. In fact, the best way to get answers out of people may be to resort to the age-old tactic of torture, magic notwithstanding. Medieval torturers were quite adept at getting answers out of people; and yet intrigue, organised crime and other such behaviour still seemed to carry on unabated.

4) There may not be spellcasters with discern lies/zone of truth on every corner, or at least not ones who are willing or able to help with investigations. Maybe the city doesn't have that many high-level clerics, or the ones who are around see policework as not being their responsibility.

5) Magic spells aren't proof, they just tell you where to find it. So even if someone admits under a zone of truth spell that they're a member of the guild, this may not be admissible evidence in a court of law.

Ultimately, however, the best answer may be: because that's the way it is. All of the above handwaves have holes in them. The answer isn't trying to patch all the holes (which is impossible), it's drawing attention away from the holes in the first place. Expending too much effort on creating a watertight background just encourages people to pay attention to that background, and can thus be counterproductive.

In Star Wars, Darth Vader had to fight Ben Kenobi alone. No-one questioned why he had to do this, he just did. And yet, for most people, the scene works, because the surrounding narrative is compelling enough to keep their attention and prevent them from noticing the holes. If you can keep your game moving, your players may also not have the chance to notice the holes.

 

[Xarlen]

On a similar topic, I'm running a murder mystery that I sprang on the players after they'd asked for their spells. Now, the cleric has a Discern Lies in his repitore.

I know that, sooner or later, they're going to cast this after narrowing the suspects down, and go through the line. My question is: What are good evasive answers for the questions asked?

Quick background: Bard is killed. She's strangled from behind. The PC's know she was strangled. The killer is a noblewoman; the bard is the lesbian lover of her daughter, who the noblewoman's husband is trying to sell off for marriage. The wife is framing her husband.

So, what're some good evasions that are half truths to: Did you strangle her? Did you kill her? And so forth.

I simply want to be Prepared.