D&D General House of the Dragon has me thinking about Succession

[GMforPowergamers]

So ( I guess broad spoilers) HotD is the story of how the dynasty implodes into a civil war.
However it has a lot of bad people, like almost no one to root for.

SO I wanted to think about a D&D game (and I am currently using 5e but I had thought of this back in 4e too, and the system is pretty agnostic) with nobles ending up having to deal with a similar but less sexist succession crisis. So I am looking for some feed back.

I have a huge combo kingdom (most phb races) and they have had human kings for a few hundred years when an issue came up. The line has most times gone to olderst (1st born child) but in the case of a more worthy (smarter, more charismatic) some times the king will appoint a younger heir. This went great even when a king lived a long time and out lived his own sons and just chose his best grandchild to be heir...

The king XXXX the 3rd had a human wife, and a human son. Then his wife died in child birth with twins. By the time the twins were 5 (and older son was a preteen) the king remarried. His new wife is a Elf with draconic blood, and she is 'only' 140 years old...

So the king dies at a ripe old age, his 1st born son and his twin daughters all grow old, have children and pass... However he ALSO had 2 half elf children with his second wife, who grow old (much longer) and had children... but the queen was still alive.

the Queen lives to be 500+ years old. the pure human line is spread out and thined out with Great, great, great, great, great grandchildren who are adults (2 dozen maybe closer to 5 dozen with bastards) The half elf line while shorter still has Great great grand children who are adults (about half a dozen). and the queen has expected to live at least another 50 years... but she took sick quickly, and is now frail, bedridden and not able to choose... her senishal technically has control until she passes... but when she does who of all of her grandchildren get the thrown?!?! Multi powerful families, some with mystic power, some with riches and some with the power of the military all have claims. Oh, and the queen MIGHT have been poisoned, maybe this ISN'T a natural illness.

What kinds of problems can I throw in? what is a good way to get the party of lesser nobles to work together? (I am thinking the Senishal puts them together). Now the PC can be Heirs, but they could just be the children of powerful noble families...

 

[LordEntrails]

Maybe its because HoD has disappointed me to the extremes, but maybe it's also because the machinations of dynastic succession are not fun for me to roleplay. So I would suggest not delving too deeply into the details unless your players are interested in that. As well, if more than 1 PC is an heir, you are likely to get inter party conflict. Is that desired by everyone?

Now, to your question... first thing I would figure out is the various factions (maybe this is the same as the noble houses or maybe not) and then what the public and private motivations of each faction is. And of course, what actions each faction has taken to date, and what their plans are.

Then I would figure out what pieces of power their are that would grant the factions power i.e. controlling a cache of dragon eggs. Earning loyalty of the admiral and the arch mage and the high general, etc. Various artifacts be they powerful or just symbolic that would grant power to the holder.

With all that, you can start off with mcGuffin quests to earn favor and gain power for the factions. Of course you will want to throw in deceit and misinformation. Like Faction A, disguised as someone from Faction B, gwants the party to do something to hinder Faction C. You can do that a dozen times, or until the party starts to figure out who is really behind the faces they are working for.

Maybe the party has to figure out how to not make too many enemies and stay friendly with everyone, at least until they are powerful enough.

As for getting them to work together, I wouldn't force it in character. In stead during session 0 let the players figure out how the characters want to be motivated to be allies. Perhaps they grew up together, or have a common enemy, or they all agree to figure it out as you go along and are willing to all start the campaign in media res, with a big fight with some vile enemy. i.e. a troll breaks into the tavern of a small village they are all getting a drink at. (And later they find out it was one of the factions doings for reason X.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

Maybe its because HoD has disappointed me to the extremes, but maybe it's also because the machinations of dynastic succession are not fun for me to roleplay.

this would not be a concept for you then.

So I would suggest not delving too deeply into the details unless your players are interested in that. As well, if more than 1 PC is an heir, you are likely to get inter party conflict. Is that desired by everyone?

just because you a potential heir doesn't mean you WANT to be King/Queen. I was thinking this would run more like an old school vampire the masquerade game.

 

[LordEntrails]

this would not be a concept for you then.

just because you a potential heir doesn't mean you WANT to be King/Queen. I was thinking this would run more like an old school vampire the masquerade game.

Understood. That's why I added 5 more paragraphs of what I hope is useful opinions for you. But maybe you didn't read them or just thought they were not helpful?
Not familiar enough with VtM to have that help me at all. But I'm sure it will help others.

 

[EzekielRaiden]

Just to be clear: the dragon-blooded elf queen ruled in her own right (without remarriage) after her husband died? This is an unusual situation in most cases, because titles are usually not inherited by one's spouse, even historically. E.g. England has only had two "coregencies," where the King and Queen ruled jointly. In both cases, the spouse with the legitimate claim to the throne of England died before the other spouse (Mary I and Mary II, as it happens), and the crown of England passed to the next closest claimant, not the spouse.

So you'll want to consider what rules might be involved for the Elf queen having a claim--since this is very different from most real-world monarchies, that could be very significant.

Formally speaking, there are two key issues here. First, it sounds like the "default" legal succession goes to the claimant's eldest child regardless of gender. This is called "absolute cognatic primogeniture": closeness of descent is the only relevant metric, not the gender of the person by which the inheritance is obtained ("absolute cognatic.") Further, children of each preferred inheritor are given primacy, so if the monarch has three children, and two grandchildren by their eldest child (and no other grandchildren), then the inheritance would go Child 1, Grandchild A, Grandchild B, Child 2, Child 3. (This is how the current English succession works, hence why Prince Harry is now 5th in line for the throne, after his brother and his brother's three children.)

Second, however, it sounds like legally the reigning monarch may choose whomever they wish to be their successor. (This may be how the elf queen came to power; if she was chosen to be her husband's successor, then she would rule in her own right despite not being part of the royal line properly.)

This creates a dynastic split, because these two rules do not agree: according to the former "default" rule, the eldest child of the eldest child of...(etc.) is the (one and only) valid claimant of the crown once the old queen dies. According to the latter rule, however, the queen (if she is in fact ruling directly) could select anyone she wishes, but it sounds like her death was sudden.

This leads to at least four likely events:

1. There will be a significant number of "pretenders" among the king's human descendants. Note, this word is not the usual meaning of "pretender," that is, it does not imply that the claim is faked or imaginary. It simply means someone who is claiming to deserve the title, whether or not they actually do. (The fact that most pretenders will end up being false ones is where the modern sense of "pretend" came from.) It's been, as you say, 500 years and the king may have had living great-grandchildren when he died. Even if we assume 25 year generations (which is a long time for a medieval society), you're talking at least 20 generations separating things. Considering how difficult it is for us to get documentary records of things that occurred 500 years ago, it's going to be difficult to prove conclusively what the "eldest child of eldest child" line is--and you can bet your bottom dollar there will be folks claiming to be descended from illegitimate children somewhere in that mass. Thus, there will almost certainly be several forces trying to find the true valid claimant, set up an easily-controlled and legitimate-seeming fake, or just profit off of sponsoring someone with a useful but incomplete claim.
2. There's almost guaranteed to be at least one faked will from the Queen saying who she chose to succeed her. Probably multiple. It's possible there's a real will, but it's also just as possible that there never was a real will, that she had indefinitely put off making such a difficult decision until she "knew it needed to happen." This leads to all sorts of skullduggery and ways one might try to verify or cast doubt upon a claimed will, and (as noted in other places) efforts to affect the mechanisms of state involved in actually recognizing and accepting the authenticity or falsity of a given document.
3. There will be at least one ploy to corrupt the mechanisms by which the choice is made. The whole point of monarchy is to build up legitimacy, so that the government can rule via social pressure, rather than ruling via force of arms. Because ruling via force of arms is incredibly unstable and invites far too much trouble. But legitimacy is a weird wibbly-wobbly timey-wimey consensus-and-observation kind of thing, arising from the mix of institutions and social mores and performance of a role etc. etc. (none of which means it is illegitimate or insincere per se; just that "cause" and "effect" are muddy and determined by human choices, not by physical constraints.) So there has to be some kind of aristocracy or bureaucracy that will need to "approve" of whomever makes the claim--and that invites a whole host of other questions. You'll want to consider what the legislature is like (few monarchs rule so directly that they write all laws personally!), what the tax-collection scheme is like, whether there are powerful aristocrats who don't want to rule but do want to control, etc. etc.
4. Civil war. The Wars of the Roses happened for reasons very similar to the above. Essentially, there were two claims to the throne, where one was clearly senior (coming from an elder son) but had been inherited through a female intermediary, while the other was clearly junior (coming from a younger son) but originally exclusively through male-line inheritance. This conflict between seniority and male-preference emboldened the two houses, Lancaster and York, but eventually through both external violence and internal strife resulted in the extinction of the male line on both sides, until Henry Tudor (inheriting a claim through his mother) married his second cousin once removed, Elizabeth of York, thus uniting the houses of York and Lancaster into the new House of Tudor. So, if you like, you could have a similar sort of thing come up, with a (possibly loveless) relationship proposed between highly eligible claimants on both sides, allowing for the possibility of a "reuniting" of the two houses.

You probably also want to give an actual name to the two houses involved here, simply because it will make it a lot easier to talk about. Always having to say "the human descendants"/"the part-elf descendants" will get awkward fast.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

Just to be clear: the dragon-blooded elf queen ruled in her own right (without remarriage) after her husband died?

I am only in the basic phrase but I assumed that spouse will come before child (so if she remarried it would cause a dynasty split)

This is an unusual situation in most cases, because titles are usually not inherited by one's spouse, even historically.

again I dislike realistic history and GoT for game because my games don't have sexism in them 9 out of 10 times

Formally speaking, there are two key issues here. First, it sounds like the "default" legal succession goes to the claimant's eldest child regardless of gender. This is called "absolute cognatic primogeniture": closeness of descent is the only relevant metric, not the gender of the person by which the inheritance is obtained ("absolute cognatic.") Further, children of each preferred inheritor are given primacy, so if the monarch has three children, and two grandchildren by their eldest child (and no other grandchildren), then the inheritance would go Child 1, Grandchild A, Grandchild B, Child 2, Child 3. (This is how the current English succession works, hence why Prince Harry is now 5th in line for the throne, after his brother and his brother's three children.)

thank you for the proper words, but in normal times that is how it would have gone.

Second, however, it sounds like legally the reigning monarch may choose whomever they wish to be their successor. (This may be how the elf queen came to power; if she was chosen to be her husband's successor, then she would rule in her own right despite not being part of the royal line properly.)

I picture it as sometimes there is a younger sibling that is just better equipped, it is just now a problem with so MANY claimants that could put it forward.

This leads to at least four likely events:

1. There will be a significant number of "pretenders" among the king's human descendants. Note, this word is not the usual meaning of "pretender," that is, it does not imply that the claim is faked or imaginary. It simply means someone who is claiming to deserve the title, whether or not they actually do. (The fact that most pretenders will end up being false ones is where the modern sense of "pretend" came from.) It's been, as you say, 500 years and the king may have had living great-grandchildren when he died. Even if we assume 25 year generations (which is a long time for a medieval society), you're talking at least 20 generations separating things. Considering how difficult it is for us to get documentary records of things that occurred 500 years ago, it's going to be difficult to prove conclusively what the "eldest child of eldest child" line is--and you can bet your bottom dollar there will be folks claiming to be descended from illegitimate children somewhere in that mass. Thus, there will almost certainly be several forces trying to find the true valid claimant, set up an easily-controlled and legitimate-seeming fake, or just profit off of sponsoring someone with a useful but incomplete claim.

this was my first and formost thought, almost 500 years is most likely 20 human and at least 8 half elf generations.

1. There's almost guaranteed to be at least one faked will from the Queen saying who she chose to succeed her. Probably multiple.

I very much should have thought of this (in the books it is aSoIaF subplot for Rob Stark)

1. There will be at least one ploy to corrupt the mechanisms by which the choice is made. The whole point of monarchy is to build up legitimacy, so that the government can rule via social pressure, rather than ruling via force of arms. Because ruling via force of arms is incredibly unstable and invites far too much trouble. But legitimacy is a weird wibbly-wobbly timey-wimey consensus-and-observation kind of thing, arising from the mix of institutions and social mores and performance of a role etc. etc.

yeah, I assume that getting the support of the military will be important, but realistically the nobles in general are more important.

1. Civil war. The Wars of the Roses happened for reasons very similar to the above. Essentially, there were two claims to the throne, where one was clearly senior (coming from an elder son) but had been inherited through a female intermediary, while the other was clearly junior (coming from a younger son) but originally exclusively through male-line inheritance.

This is were I figured the game would go, at first with a dozen sides, but slowly with side falling and combining getting down to 2 or 3.

You probably also want to give an actual name to the two houses involved here, simply because it will make it a lot easier to talk about. Always having to say "the human descendants"/"the part-elf descendants" will get awkward fast.

agreed. I actually need to come up with kingdom city and noble names...

 

[GMforPowergamers]

quick names starter idea (and slight tweek of dates)

400 years ago King Randor the 3rd's 1st wife died in child birth with twins. The king was young though and remarried for a new love by the time the twins were 7... to Elenas the Elven sage. When 20 years later the king died in battle with orcs, he left 6 children. His first born son and the twins from his first wife and 3 half elven children with the Queen Consort Elanas.

Elanas as was the custom, when a spouse died the other took over as regent... but normally before this that would be a human life time. (the longest this had ever happened before was 17 1/2 yetars) for 400 years Elanas has ruled as Regent as her children and her step children gave her grandchildren and grew old and died. Then her grandchildren gave her great grandchildren and grew old and died. The fully human line was lost (are there really living human descendants?) Some great grand children of Elanas and Randor III are alive, but they are in the end of there lives by old age. There are great great grand children, and great great great grand children who are old or at least adult, and great great great great grandchildren who are adult and in there prime... and great great great great great grandchildren who are young adult but old enough to rule... and as such right now there are at least 100 possible heirs. (22 generations of human line, and 9 generations of half elf not counting preteen children)

Now Elanas who is just over 600 years old has been struck sick quickly, both mentally and physically. Her Seneschal is not even her direct descendent, but a half elf with draconic heritage who is descendent of her uncle.

the whole kingdom knows what is coming. Every noble family, ones that had ties to kings before the unifications, those related to the queen regent, and just ones with influence are starting to make moves.

This is a new Catastrophe that has been coming for at least the last 100 years if not the last 400. It could tear the world apart.... rumors that the queen isn't just sick but poisoned, and sides already maneuvering for there own family claims to the thrown.

Spoiler: idea

By the time that Randor III came to power it was common for a king to call together counsels of specialists or nobles at different times. In the last 200 years there has not been even 1 such counsel officially called. Many assume that a great counsel will have to be called soon.



However today a Counsel IS being called, a small one, a specialist one. Letters have gone out, and replies have come in. Advisors are being given titles, and having sworn swords and spy masters and caster advisors of there own together as a web.

Who is this Counsel? Why you of course. The PCs... or at least 1/3 of the characters.

 

[babi_gog]

Elanas as was the custom, when a spouse died the other took over as regent... but normally before this that would be a human life time. (the longest this had ever happened before was 17 1/2 yetars) for 400 years Elanas has ruled as Regent as her children and her step children gave her grandchildren and grew old and died.

Not wanting to make to many holes in things, however it seems that you have a set up where a regent is ruler until they die. Where usually a regent is caretaker ruler until the one they rule on behalf of comes of age, or recovers from what ever is preventing them from ruling.

The second item to think on is the college of herald in this setting. Those who keep track of noble lines and issue arms to them. With long lived races such as elves around, they are likely to engage in such activities and not only be able to work from family trees but also memory. Examples of the college of herald included the Court of the Lord Lyon and the College of Arms.

Third, as to the army. If this is a pseudo-medieval setting, then there will be a very small standing army of the nation, and most of the forces will be under the control of the noble families (tied to the land they control). Thus the need to gain favour with the other nobles (including offering them nice post and possibly more land if they back you) and from this gaining their armed force.

 

[NotAYakk]

I would expect that, even ruling as regent, the prince (the heir) would be a position.

That position might have multiple titles. Like "Prince of Whalesburg" and "Defender of the Eastern Reaches" and "Protector of the Rose" and "Beloved of Amon".

I could see this position originally having lots of power, or following some strict rules of blood lines.

But a scandal (illegitimate child!), a compromise (splitting up who has what title), and worse (a title being subsumed in another, then the parent title being split). Now these titles are held by various in theory descendents of the king and queen (except for one, strangely).

Some are inherited usually. Others are given for life. Some used to be inherited, but the last time was not. Some last 5 years.

The queen falls ill. While she is ill, one title that use to be inherited has its bearer die from assassionation; their heir claims it.

Her last words are the name of the title that is not publicly inherited from either the queen or king.

Each of the titles produces documents, of varying certainty and providence, saying they are the designated heir.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

Not wanting to make to many holes in things,

please do, it helps me make it work better.

however it seems that you have a set up where a regent is ruler until they die. Where usually a regent is caretaker ruler until the one they rule on behalf of comes of age, or recovers from what ever is preventing them from ruling.

yeah I was going for before this the queen or king not of line would rule a few years and either die or step down for there son or daughter to take over... that works when human life spans link up not so much with an elf. It kind of spiraled and I assume X00 years ago it was an issue for the first born human child as well... but that is history I can write.

The second item to think on is the college of herald in this setting.

I am betting 1/2 of my time will be working out names, hearladry and concepts for families.

Third, as to the army. If this is a pseudo-medieval setting, then there will be a very small standing army of the nation, and most of the forces will be under the control of the noble families (tied to the land they control). Thus the need to gain favour with the other nobles (including offering them nice post and possibly more land if they back you) and from this gaining their armed force.

I assume there are some families (especially those near conflict zones) with strong armies and some with small house gaurds... and getting teh more powerful militaries on YOUR side will matter...

In GoT and the books aSoIaF you have the north able to raise an army, and a few others, but it seems the lanasters already have one. If there was an enemy down by dorn to the south I assume they would have an army always too... the sea going people have boats, but not all the '7 kingdoms' do.