D&D General House of the Dragon has me thinking about Succession

[GMforPowergamers]

I would expect that, even ruling as regent, the prince (the heir) would be a position.

That position might have multiple titles. Like "Prince of Whalesburg" and "Defender of the Eastern Reaches" and "Protector of the Rose" and "Beloved of Amon".

I could see this position originally having lots of power, or following some strict rules of blood lines.

Yeah I figure a few hundred years ago we had a clear heir, and he had a bunch of power and titles, and he passed them to his children... but again that was a few hundred years ago.

But a scandal (illegitimate child!), a compromise (splitting up who has what title), and worse (a title being subsumed in another, then the parent title being split). Now these titles are held by various in theory descendents of the king and queen (except for one, strangely).

Some are inherited usually. Others are given for life. Some used to be inherited, but the last time was not. Some last 5 years.

I'm not keen on 5 year terms, but I do think non lifetime appointments being 'until' they are not fit for it any more...

The queen falls ill. While she is ill, one title that use to be inherited has its bearer die from assassionation; their heir claims it.

oh assassins will be very much plot points.

 

[NotAYakk]

I'm not keen on 5 year terms, but I do think non lifetime appointments being 'until' they are not fit for it any more...

My point is there is a half-dozen titles that the heir used to hold.

One of them has been transformed to something like a "the queen thinks you are awesome", and she traditionally bestows it on someone new every 5 years, instead of for life. This is clearly not supposed to be the heir -- but that doesn't stop someone from trying!

 

[GMforPowergamers]

My point is there is a half-dozen titles that the heir used to hold.

One of them has been transformed to something like a "the queen thinks you are awesome", and she traditionally bestows it on someone new every 5 years, instead of for life. This is clearly not supposed to be the heir -- but that doesn't stop someone from trying!

okay I didn't think of that... like getting a gold star at work it's just an 'adda boy' maybe I DO like that

 

[Yora]

Some months ago I was thinking about how inherentence would play out of my family would be medieval nobles. Since my area had always been traditionally male primogeniture where the firstborn son gets the whole estate with no splitting of property, it turns out that I would be the heir of all my eight great-grandparents.

Simplifying things, we have three different estates of three of my great-grandparents in different parts of Holstein. (The fourth was ceded to the King of Poland.) My father inherits #1, and my mother #2 and #3. And I inherit all three.

The next in succession after me would be my father's brother's son. Since my father's brother was the third son with nothing to inherit, he married into a family in Saxony. His son, my cousin, was born and lived his whole life in Saxony.

Here it get's interesting. While his claim to estate #1 is perfectly clear cut and unambiguous, my mother's sister's son might be quite upset that he's to see his grandfather's estate on which he grew up given to some noble from Saxony he has no direct relationship to and who's never even been to the place. I guess I would have made him the steward of estate #2, so he's already in control of it and knows all the staff and tenants his whole life. He also is friends with many other nobles in Holstein, including his younger half-brother who is the owner of a really big estate himself. (He gets an honest to good farm instead of a single family house. )

Now if my cousin from Saxony shows up in Holstein to claim his three estates, and my maternal cousin who has manged them says he can have #1, but won't get #2 and #3, what's going to happen?
The Saxon cousin might have a claim according to the letter of the law, but the Holsteiner cousin has possession of the land and contacts to other local nobles, including his own brother.
No clue about the maternal side of my Saxon cousin. If his mother is from a nobody family with no power, he's going to have to suck it up and be greatful that he at leasts gets the land from his own grandfather. But if his mother is from a big and powerful Saxon family ready to march north, then things are going to get really interesting.

If I'll ever find myself in need for a dynastic struggle, I'll be using those inheritence rules and make it about the old lord's paternal and maternal cousins.

 

[Shiroiken]

There's plenty of things that can wreck the logic of this setup, and the best bet is to use plot points to undo them. First, I strongly suggest that the human children form their own noble families, which then creates the probability of intermarriage to confuse which is who. The queen began to suffer from mental lapse a few decades ago, which is to be expected of someone centuries old, so that she no longer remembered which human family was "first," while the official records were destroyed in a fire a few years ago. Each human family has a seemingly legitimate document proclaiming they are the descendants of the 1st human child. While the half-elf families should have similar situations, their big focus should be that their generation is closer to the original kings, thus making one of them the heir.

In this particular situation, a war of succession is almost certain, since even if the players manage to find out who the "true heir" is, the most powerful family isn't going down without a fight! This sets up a two part campaign, where the players attempt to find the heir, then must help them keep the throne (assuming they don't want it for themselves ).

 

[babi_gog]

There's plenty of things that can wreck the logic of this setup, and the best bet is to use plot points to undo them. First, I strongly suggest that the human children form their own noble families, which then creates the probability of intermarriage to confuse which is who. The queen began to suffer from mental lapse a few decades ago, which is to be expected of someone centuries old, so that she no longer remembered which human family was "first," while the official records were destroyed in a fire a few years ago. Each human family has a seemingly legitimate document proclaiming they are the descendants of the 1st human child. While the half-elf families should have similar situations, their big focus should be that their generation is closer to the original kings, thus making one of them the heir.

In this particular situation, a war of succession is almost certain, since even if the players manage to find out who the "true heir" is, the most powerful family isn't going down without a fight! This sets up a two part campaign, where the players attempt to find the heir, then must help them keep the throne (assuming they don't want it for themselves ).

The main issue I'd see with the above is that the Queen is not the only Elf in the kingdom, and others will also remember, and possibly hold records (again going to the idea of the college of heralds).

The main thing I see happening here is we get biggest army diplomacy and the war of succession.

Also the other things to keep in mind is that apart from the elves (and any one else with a similar life span) no one else will have gone through a succession event. So there will also be a degree of not knowing what to do. [This was in part evident in the UK in the last few weeks, and that was only a 70 year gap].

 

[Velderan]

again I dislike realistic history and GoT for game because my games don't have sexism in them 9 out of 10 times

I don't think what was explained was really sexist, basically it was just saying bloodline is typically more important than ties through marriage for purposes of succession. It's your game and you can obviously do as you like so marriage could indeed be a valid claim to the throne.

Example, the Queen who is of royal blood marries some random noble from a prominent family to strengthen her position as ruler. She dies and the throne would pass to one of her children (1st born, her favorite, the one who wins a 1v1 fight, etc) instead of the random noble she married becoming king and ruling until his death. The how succession happens could be what creates some campaign intrigue if it's open to shenanigans.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

I don't think what was explained was really sexist, basically it was just saying bloodline is typically more important than ties through marriage for purposes of succession. It's your game and you can obviously do as you like so marriage could indeed be a valid claim to the throne.

Example, the Queen who is of royal blood marries some random noble from a prominent family to strengthen her position as ruler. She dies and the throne would pass to one of her children (1st born, her favorite, the one who wins a 1v1 fight, etc) instead of the random noble she married becoming king and ruling until his death. The how succession happens could be what creates some campaign intrigue if it's open to shenanigans.

yeah i can see that but the half elf child wouldn't live long enough to make this work...

Spoiler: squawky realistic and GoT like content

I also have in my head that at least a few times cousin was married to cousin leading to 'on grandpa side I have a claim as a pure human descendent, but on grandma side too but on the half elf side

 

[Crimson Longinus]

I have to say that a spouse without a bloodline claim on their own right inheriting seems really jarring to me. It is fantasy so I guess things could in theory work that way, but it is quite ahistorical and would seriously alter how royal marriages are arranged in the first place.

Edit: And yes, I know this happened in GoT and it bugged me a lot.

 

[Amrûnril]

I have to say that a spouse without a bloodline claim on their own right inheriting seems really jarring to me. It is fantasy so I guess things could in theory work that way, but it is quite ahistorical and would seriously alter how royal marriages are arranged in the first place.

Edit: And yes, I know this happened in GoT and it bugged me a lot.

I remember this being important to some of the plot points in Dimension 20's A Crown of Candy, and I found it odd as well. It's probably intuitive to a lot of people since it's how modern property inheritance generally works, but it's an odd fit for a pseudo-medieval setting where creating shared political interests (primarily through shared descendants) is the main point of the marriage. It also creates very obvious assassination incentives if the spouses don't actually like each other or if there are non-shared children in the picture.