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House rule: Knockouts and the Average Joe
- Thread starter JPL
- Start date
Thoughts on the Scotsman and how he couldn't knock folks out...
He's a Strong6 Hero, yes? And does he specialize in knocking folks out, boxing-style? If so, he could have the following feats and talents:
Str16 -- started at 15, raised at 4th.
Dex 13
1 Brawl
1 Power Attack
2 -- Strong Bonus Feat, Weapon Focus (Unarmed)
3 Streetfighting
4 -- Strong Bonus Feat, Improved Brawl
6 Two-Weapon Fighting
6 -- Strong Bonus Feat, Combat Martial Arts
Talents: Melee Smash, Improved Melee Smash, Advanced Melee Smash
So, at 6th level, this guy has:
A BAB of +6
A +2 Competence Bonus to hit from Improved Brawl
A +1 bonus to hit from Weapon Focus
A +3 Strength Bonus
And on damage, you do:
1d8 nonlethal
+3 Strength
+3 from Advanced Melee Smash
+1d4 from Streetfighting
So even without Power Attacking or going Two-Weapon or anything, you're attacking at +12/+7 and hitting for 1d8+1d4+6, or 8-18 points damage.
Against tougher foes, you assume that they can't be THAT hard to hit and Power Attack like there's no tomorrow, since you only need for that first attack to hit. That Scotsman could be swinging at +7/+2, which is at least likely to hit every other round or so, and doing 13-23 points of nonlethal damage. Heck, I gave him Combat Martial Arts so that he could make lethal attacks without taking the -4. Sure, he does 1d4 instead of 1d8, and depending on whose rules you listen to, he might lose the competence bonus to hit from Improved Brawl, but he still does 1d4 base +3 Str +3 Melee Smash Talents +1d4 Streetfighting +5 Power Attack, meaning 13-19 points damage.
Not really chiming in on the overarching rules question, because I haven't played yet and don't know -- but anyone who takes Brawl can simply add Power Attack (since the biggest flaw to Power Attack, likely missing on your second attacks, is no longer a deal, on account of you wanting to do all that damage in one hit) and stand a MUCH better chance of taking people out. People's ACs don't get THAT high in d20 Modern -- my tricked-out Fast Hero/Martial Artist clocked in at 25, taking all kinds of defensive feats to make him harder to hit. And that was at level 20.
-Tacky
He's a Strong6 Hero, yes? And does he specialize in knocking folks out, boxing-style? If so, he could have the following feats and talents:
Str16 -- started at 15, raised at 4th.
Dex 13
1 Brawl
1 Power Attack
2 -- Strong Bonus Feat, Weapon Focus (Unarmed)
3 Streetfighting
4 -- Strong Bonus Feat, Improved Brawl
6 Two-Weapon Fighting
6 -- Strong Bonus Feat, Combat Martial Arts
Talents: Melee Smash, Improved Melee Smash, Advanced Melee Smash
So, at 6th level, this guy has:
A BAB of +6
A +2 Competence Bonus to hit from Improved Brawl
A +1 bonus to hit from Weapon Focus
A +3 Strength Bonus
And on damage, you do:
1d8 nonlethal
+3 Strength
+3 from Advanced Melee Smash
+1d4 from Streetfighting
So even without Power Attacking or going Two-Weapon or anything, you're attacking at +12/+7 and hitting for 1d8+1d4+6, or 8-18 points damage.
Against tougher foes, you assume that they can't be THAT hard to hit and Power Attack like there's no tomorrow, since you only need for that first attack to hit. That Scotsman could be swinging at +7/+2, which is at least likely to hit every other round or so, and doing 13-23 points of nonlethal damage. Heck, I gave him Combat Martial Arts so that he could make lethal attacks without taking the -4. Sure, he does 1d4 instead of 1d8, and depending on whose rules you listen to, he might lose the competence bonus to hit from Improved Brawl, but he still does 1d4 base +3 Str +3 Melee Smash Talents +1d4 Streetfighting +5 Power Attack, meaning 13-19 points damage.
Not really chiming in on the overarching rules question, because I haven't played yet and don't know -- but anyone who takes Brawl can simply add Power Attack (since the biggest flaw to Power Attack, likely missing on your second attacks, is no longer a deal, on account of you wanting to do all that damage in one hit) and stand a MUCH better chance of taking people out. People's ACs don't get THAT high in d20 Modern -- my tricked-out Fast Hero/Martial Artist clocked in at 25, taking all kinds of defensive feats to make him harder to hit. And that was at level 20.
-Tacky
Good analysis. I should've used Power Attack [too many bad guys to keep track of --- I wasn't strategizing as well as I should have]. Plus I was rolling badly. But it worked out in the end --- the look on their faces when Angus started doing kung fu was beautiful.
Actually, the "house rule" I'll probably apply is simply to strongly suggest that everyone take either Brawl or CMA.
Actually, the "house rule" I'll probably apply is simply to strongly suggest that everyone take either Brawl or CMA.
As another thought, I don't know how much this would mess up game balance, but you could add a feat like:
Systematic Knockout:
Pre-req: Brawl, Two-Weapon Fighting (or whatever)
You have become an expert at setting opponents up with strikes that work together to blast through their defenses. When you hit an opponent multiple times in one round, add together the total damage you do for purposes of determining massive damage thresholds and lethal knockout thresholds. For example, if you hit twice for 8 and 9 points of nonlethal damage, treat the opponent as having suffered 17 points of damage from one strike.
Note1: This ability only works for nonlethal damage.
Note2: Because you need to use finesse and accuracy to set up your opponent with multiple strikes, this ability cannot be used while using Power Attack.
-Tacky
Systematic Knockout:
Pre-req: Brawl, Two-Weapon Fighting (or whatever)
You have become an expert at setting opponents up with strikes that work together to blast through their defenses. When you hit an opponent multiple times in one round, add together the total damage you do for purposes of determining massive damage thresholds and lethal knockout thresholds. For example, if you hit twice for 8 and 9 points of nonlethal damage, treat the opponent as having suffered 17 points of damage from one strike.
Note1: This ability only works for nonlethal damage.
Note2: Because you need to use finesse and accuracy to set up your opponent with multiple strikes, this ability cannot be used while using Power Attack.
-Tacky
Mistwell
Crusty Old Meatwad (he/him)
JPL said:
Ah. My bad. I should have remembered you were also an attorney. I was being overly senstive. Sorry for over reacting.
Takyris: Loving the scotsman! I too forgot all about power attack and how useful it would be in this situation. In fact, I'm thinking I need to send this scotsman (i'll call him Groundskeeper Willie) up against my PCs soon...good way to teach them the power of brawling, and the lesson won't be fatal.
Last edited:
Pbartender
First Post
Forcegypsy said:
I see what you mean. I'll be trying this out, and see how it works. I'll let you guys know.
In response...
1- Normally, I do too. But this isn't a situation that normally comes up often, so I a don't see a problem with a little extra rolling... It's like having a poisoned weapon.
2- I go for simple changes rather than small changes. (Though they often amount to the same thing.) I can't always make them less complicated than they already are, but never more.
Glad the Scottsman helped -- my wife, born of MacRae stock, will be so proud that I helped make this paragon of pugilism more effective. 
Not to hijack the thread, but I was thinking more about that feat possibility, the feat that lets you stack your damage to get over the threshold, and I was wondering if people thought it would be too powerful. I was considering the following:
Possibility: Can only be used on nonlethal attacks. Honestly, I don't see why it couldn't be used for lethal attacks, but I'd worry about every ogre in the world taking this feat.
Possibility: Dex pre-requisite. This gets over the Ogre problem -- not many ogres have a Dex of 13. So if I added this, maybe I could let it work for lethal attacks as well.
Possibility: Penalty on all attacks. Something like a -2 on all attacks for that round, since you ARE trying to cluster your hits rather than hit wherever you can. People would complain about the stacking -2 with Two-Weapon fighting, but really, it's gonna let them take out bad guys right and left, so I'm fine with a penalty.
Possibility: Not all damage stacks. This makes the feat a ton weaker, but if the feat read "Every additional hit adds half its damage to the most damaging hit you made" rather than "All damage stacks," there'd be a lot less concern about it getting too powerful. I dunno. That's a lot more math, though. It could just be, "Every additional hit adds +2 to the effective damage of your first or most damaging hit for purposes of hitting the Massive Damage Threshold."
Possibility: No Power Attacking. This seems somewhat arbitrary to me, and while I don't want the feat to get too powerful, I also don't see why someone shouldn't be able to suffer a penalty on his attacks from two-weaponing, another penalty on his attacks from power-attacking, and a THIRD penalty on his attacks from using this feat (if I use the penalty-to-hit rule) and stand a chance of just utterly clobbering someone.
Thoughts? Thanks for the help.
-Tacky
Not to hijack the thread, but I was thinking more about that feat possibility, the feat that lets you stack your damage to get over the threshold, and I was wondering if people thought it would be too powerful. I was considering the following:
Possibility: Can only be used on nonlethal attacks. Honestly, I don't see why it couldn't be used for lethal attacks, but I'd worry about every ogre in the world taking this feat.
Possibility: Dex pre-requisite. This gets over the Ogre problem -- not many ogres have a Dex of 13. So if I added this, maybe I could let it work for lethal attacks as well.
Possibility: Penalty on all attacks. Something like a -2 on all attacks for that round, since you ARE trying to cluster your hits rather than hit wherever you can. People would complain about the stacking -2 with Two-Weapon fighting, but really, it's gonna let them take out bad guys right and left, so I'm fine with a penalty.
Possibility: Not all damage stacks. This makes the feat a ton weaker, but if the feat read "Every additional hit adds half its damage to the most damaging hit you made" rather than "All damage stacks," there'd be a lot less concern about it getting too powerful. I dunno. That's a lot more math, though. It could just be, "Every additional hit adds +2 to the effective damage of your first or most damaging hit for purposes of hitting the Massive Damage Threshold."
Possibility: No Power Attacking. This seems somewhat arbitrary to me, and while I don't want the feat to get too powerful, I also don't see why someone shouldn't be able to suffer a penalty on his attacks from two-weaponing, another penalty on his attacks from power-attacking, and a THIRD penalty on his attacks from using this feat (if I use the penalty-to-hit rule) and stand a chance of just utterly clobbering someone.
Thoughts? Thanks for the help.
-Tacky
Pbartender
First Post
Speaking of that feat...
Why not use something similar to the Burst Fire or Double Tap feats?
Why not use something similar to the Burst Fire or Double Tap feats?
Yeah, or that.
Excellent idea -- I might extend it to Lethal Damage and require that it be any light weapon, ditching Brawl and making the requirement "Combat Martial Arts, Two-Weapon Fighting". Dunno if that would unbalance it, though. Consider it potentially yoinked.
-Tacky
Excellent idea -- I might extend it to Lethal Damage and require that it be any light weapon, ditching Brawl and making the requirement "Combat Martial Arts, Two-Weapon Fighting". Dunno if that would unbalance it, though. Consider it potentially yoinked.
-Tacky
