How a DM can counter cheesy PC tactics w/o using cheesy DM tactics.

[Ridley's Cohort]

The rule about half movement in darkness is not absolute, IMO. It mostly makes sense if you're on the ground, because you lose the ability to see where you're putting your feet. Flying creatures should be allowed to keep their full movement speed, if in an open area; they know they're not going to crash into anything, so they can keep on in a straight line (and probably climb) to get out of the area of effect.

Only sometimes true. Flying in the open with poor vision is doable, but it is extremely disorienting to have zero vision.

Have you ever noticed that birds don't like to fly at night?

 

[ruleslawyer]

I've seen this tactic in use several times, and it is indeed nasty. I'm not just talking theory here.

Dispel isn't a great counter for this tactic: since you can't target what you can't see, you can only cast it as an AoE spell. If you don't catch the center of the darkness effect, at best you create a small area with light in it -- and since darkness is an emanation, I believe the darkness would fill the area back up next round.

And not all spellcasters will be prepared for this tactic, and not all enemies have spellcasters.

It's not infallible -- no tactic is -- but IME, it's way overpowered, and my players agreed that the game would be more fun if it weren't an option.

Daniel

Any thoughts on my other points, Daniel?

 

[Pielorinho]

1) It requires a simple 3rd-level cleric spell or a preexisting 2nd-level wizard spell (daylight) to counter deeper darkness. Anyone with a decent intelligence will have one of these on hand in a world where the blindsight/deeper darkness combo exists. Even more simply, the universally-prepared dispel magic will take care of this problem as well.

Probably about 20% of my encounters involve someone with access to one or more of these strategies. Even if someone does have access to these strategies, the PCs can have an easy counter-strategy: just keep an extra darkness spell prepared on a scroll.

2) More monsters have scent, tremorsense, or blindsight than do PCs. Using this tactic against a dragon is a sure-fire way of dying.

I would not expect PCs to use this tactic against a dragon. Scent partially negates this tactic, but only partially. Blindsight and tremorsense creatures are pretty rare -- and since my PCs are fly-spell-happy (understandably: the mobility it grants in battle is unparalleled), tremorsense wouldn't help against it.

3) As I said earlier, either the area involved is going to be so small that the entire party will be blinded, or it's going to be an open space, possibly outdoors. If the latter is correct, the rogue's target need merely run. If the rogue follows, he's likely to get separated from the rest of the party (who can't see what he's doing) and possibly fall into a trap.

I tend to run city-based adventures, with lots of outdoor activities. In the one time the PCs did use this tactic, the enemies that survived only did so by running away: the ones that remained in the area got creamed, despite being huge toughies.

4) You're assuming non-spellcasters (i.e. those folk who can't counter or dispel the darkness effect), are you? Against most non-spellcasting creatures, a simple levitation spell cast upon an archer guarantees eventual death, AND handicaps not a single other party member.

I'm assuming that the PCs will use this tactic in many circumstances if it's available. It doesn't guarantee success, but it provides such a significant advantage in most cases that it'd be foolish not to use it. And IMO, it makes battles dreary, makes them have the same flavor over and over, which isn't at all a good thing. My players agreed with me when I brought this issue up and agreed that the spell should not be available.

Daniel

 

[Galfridus]

Couple points

Firstly, it seems to me that any caster worth their salt should be able to target the center of a Darkness with Dispel Magic from outside the Darkness. Hm, or maybe people were talking about casters inside the Darkness...

If this tactic is upsetting the game, the DM needs to think about how to handle it. There are quite a few ways:

1) Negate the tactic. This is what I do -- IMC, Magic of Faerun is banned, so the spell never comes up. If the DM just plain doesn't like this kind of thing happening, this is what to do.

2) Nerf the tactic. As several others have suggested, make a house rule so that the spell, or the blindsight ability, doesn't work in a way that enables this tactic.

3) Ignore the tactic. This, presumably, is what's happening right now -- the DM isn't doing anything in particular about the tactic, and it's causing problems.

4) Embrace the tactic. This is the interesting solution.

If these spells exist and are common, and the tactic really is that effective, then this shouldn't be a "PC tactic" -- it should be a world-wide tactic. As such, countermeasures would be developed. I would start thinking about things that any creature could use to negate this tactic. Some might require creating new spells or items: an alchemical potion that, when its flash is broken, creates daylight for 1 minute; a Higher Daylight spell that is identical to Deeper Darkness except that it creates light. The DM should come up with a bunch of these, assume that people use them, and adjust encounters accordingly.

Alternatively, simplying upping the EL of encounters, because the party is that much more powerful, makes sense.

As an aside, using this tactic back against the PCs is silly; they are prepared for it. The DM should come up with /other/ effective strategies.

Finally, remember that the purpose of D&D is entertainment. If no one is having fun because of this tactic, and the DM doesn't want to do all the work required to revise his world and adventures to account for it, then no one should complain if the DM says "this combo doesn't work any more". Think of it as switching Darrens or something.

 

[dkilgo]

Why ban Magic of Faerun? It is an essential source book for my campaign. But, if you want to do this then it's your campaign.

There are so many ways that a DM could counter this it is almost unreal. The only problem lies in the material. The material is only a guide line, and can (and most probably should) be expanded upon. I like the idea of getting creative, and unleashing some original spells that your PCs have not ever heard of before. It takes some work from by the DM, but very effective. Heck, one could go to the house rules forrum, and get many an idea of what would probably work.

 

[Victim]

You can just as easily use True Seeing to launch attacks from darkness. I've seen a player instantly conceed a high level arena match because his opponent used a Gem of Seeing and cast Deeper Darkness. Using True Seeing is more resource intensive, but provides other benefits as well.

 

[dkilgo]

I like true seeing...


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