How bad does the bard suck?

Darklone · Jan 5, 2007

*hi5 to Sejs*

... but I was faster

Umbran · Jan 5, 2007

Firebeetle said:
(snicker)

Laughter is an emotional argument, rather than a substantive one.

In a thread that could become heated, I'll suggest folks try really hard to stick to substantive araguments.

Crothian · Jan 5, 2007

Firebeetle said:
Multiclassing is the only way to remove the bard’s ills. I would ultimately prefer a class I could just play straight up without feeling the need to apologize to the rest of the party every time.

What is wrong with multi classing? I see fighters take level of rogue to get rid of their weak reflex save and skill points. I see barbarians take a few levels of sorcerer to get a better will save and a few key spells. I'm not sure from reading this your original statement was accurate.

Darklone · Jan 5, 2007

Me love multiclass monstrosities. Sadly, the 3.0 bard was better in that regard. See Invisibility saved my group three times.

Edit: And I dearly miss Mage armor and Magic Weapon.

Fishbone · Jan 5, 2007

But you get Sonic Weapon, Inspirational Boost, Ray of Dizziness and Elation. What I miss is the old skool Cloud of Bewilderment. Anything with a bad Forty save was dead meat. At low levels with a nice Charisma score you could lay down a DC 15-16 area effect spell that blinded and stunned for 1d6 rounds. Game over, baby. Game over. Nauseation for 1d6 rounds isn't that bad but it used to be way better.

LordVyreth · Jan 5, 2007

I don't see any real problem with the bard. I'm more concerned when comparing it to one class specifically: the Dragon Savant. I haven't seen enough enough of the class in action, but they seem to serve similar "buff" rolls, but the Savant has a more consistent power and a higher HD. Actually, where does it mention the Concentration to maintain song and song duration rules? I may have to reread the bard's description in the Player's Handbook, because I don't remember those rules.

Shadeydm · Jan 5, 2007

How bad do bards suck seems like a really loaded question.

Set · Jan 5, 2007

It's not like anyone's dissing Henry V for using his Perform (oratory) skill to Inspire Greatness in St. Crispin's Day...

"Bardic Music" need not be music.

And that's my quibble with the Bard. It's straightjacketed into a song and dance-themed dragon-blooded pseudo-sorcerer.

It could as easily be transformed into a Noble class, using a limited selection of Wizard spells and Wizard casting, to represent the nobility training their young in the arts of magic, and turning the song / music focus into one based on other skills, like Perform (oratory) or Knowledge (tactics) for inspiring speeches and leadership or Knowledge (religion) for a church-sponsored evangelist sort, exhorting his men to greater efforts on behalf of the faith.

Remove all 'bard-only' spells related to music (and / or fold the sonic-themed ones into the base Wizard list, along with fireballs and acid arrows) and have the 'Noble' stick to a similarly smaller subset of the Sor/Wiz list, just using Wizard casting (and spellbooks) to represent an educated class (which need not be rich, I could see just about *all* stereotypical elves having this form of 'Bard' as their most common class. A little bit fighter, a little bit rogue, a little bit wizard, with a flair for the dramatic and an inspiring personality. It's got 'Tolkein Elf' stamped right on the tin!).

Boom. No need for every Bard to have that quasi-dragon-descended origin of the Sorcerer, or to carry around a harp. And Gwynneth the Harpsmith might even use Perform (harp) for her inspiration, and be barely recognizable from the bog-standard 3.5 Bard, but she wouldn't *have* to be.

Retreater · Jan 5, 2007

There's no need in this becoming a heated debate. We all love this game, no need for any grief about any of its components (including character classes).

Sorry if I frustrated anybody ... not my intent.

Hope everyone has a good weekend.

Retreater

Sejs · Jan 5, 2007

Shadeydm said:
How bad do bards suck seems like a really loaded question.

It is. Firebeetle likes to nail himself up on a cross every so often on the matter. It's not a discussion about "is the bard balanced", "how can the bard shine in a unique, primary role", or "should the bard be redesigned to be competitive out of the gate with other, more focused classes".

None of that. It's Firebeetle saying "My favoritest class ever, the Bard, sucks and I dare you to try to prove me wrong".

So yes, it is a loaded question. And no evidence seems to be able to sway him from his position. Like Darklone said, it really does feel like being trolled.