If every creature in an encounter is doing ongoing damage on every hit, that does not sound like an appropriate encounter against 1st level characters. I will again say this is a DM mistake.
How can i maintain a group without a leader?
- Thread starter styker
- Start date
If every creature in an encounter is doing ongoing damage on every hit, that does not sound like an appropriate encounter against 1st level characters. I will again say this is a DM mistake.
I played from level 6-9 without a leader, and it worked out. It involved healing potions, and every party member doing what they could (heal checks, dumping potions down mouths, etc) and we survived pretty well for the most part. Then a nasty battle killed 3 out of 5, but a healer would have barely mattered in that one, it was a mistake on both our part and the DM's. After that we got a cleric. It definitely made hp management easier, but we still almost lost our ranger several times.
My take: Leaders make not dying easier, but they are not necessary. You just have to compensate properly.
My take: Leaders make not dying easier, but they are not necessary. You just have to compensate properly.
keterys
First Post
Only if the cleric's healing was actually necessary. In many cases, it just isn't _necessary_. At which point you can make an equally silly comparison like say that the sorcerer that replaced the cleric killed monsters so much faster that the group took less damage than the cleric would have healed, so a cleric heals negative damage.
I've done whole _levels_ where I withheld healing until the end of an encounter to see if the group could cope. It freaked certain people out, but it was entirely viable. And it meant that I could get abilities which focused less on healing and more on damage output, which in turn made the party perform better, so we needed even less healing. I did a paragon adventure regarded as quite tough with my warlord and didn't need to expend a single healing ability, at all, because we just used overwhelming damage instead.
So switching a leader to a striker and letting people use alternatives like healing potions, healer's sashes, dwarven armor, etc _does work_, but it is more dangerous. It requires more thought, occasionally a raise dead, and it may remove some of the cushioning from DM mistake (like they throw a TPK at you and you don't have time to struggle out and run before succumbing)
Just like other roles. Playing without a Defender is possible, but you have to worry more about your front line and surviviability. You could bet by with a durable melee striker or two, but your healer had better be up to it. You can go without a Striker, but be prepared to grind it out, and eveyone had better invest some resources in DPR or you have to endure long, long, fights of attrition.
Basically, whatever role is missing, the party must take up slack. For leaders, there is less room for error since the penalty is dire. It is *possible*, but not recommended.
Jay
UngeheuerLich
Legend
what you can consider is giving a little bit higher point buy or roll stats. Characters are slightly more durable then.
I played a leaderless 3 pc group with striker striker defender and no problem in the first chaos scar encounter. The pala didn´t have to use a single heal. But 2 people became a little bit bloodied.
Stats were slightly higher than normal but rolled... the assassin e.g. had 19 dex 17 cha and all other stats 12...
the sorcerer has a lousy AC of 14...
But i agree that some lucky hits can take out a leaderless party, so some ways for emergency healing should be strongly considered. No healing at all seems too risky... as is going with a defenderless party with only ranged strikers.
I played a leaderless 3 pc group with striker striker defender and no problem in the first chaos scar encounter. The pala didn´t have to use a single heal. But 2 people became a little bit bloodied.
Stats were slightly higher than normal but rolled... the assassin e.g. had 19 dex 17 cha and all other stats 12...
the sorcerer has a lousy AC of 14...
But i agree that some lucky hits can take out a leaderless party, so some ways for emergency healing should be strongly considered. No healing at all seems too risky... as is going with a defenderless party with only ranged strikers.
Prestidigitalis
First Post
My level 8 cleric (now worm food) could use Healing Word to heal surge + 6 (Wis) + 1 (Healer's Implement) + 2d6. Most of the group had a surge value of at least 14, for a total of about 28. That's almost 3 times as much as a Healing Potion.
This made a big difference for us because our DM likes to make us do Endurance checks for overland travel, etc. When you start with 7 surges and lose 4 of them to miscellaneous out-of-combat failures, you need to make the most of the remaining 3.
30 HP of healing from Potions, or 84 HP from Healing Word: your choice.
This made a big difference for us because our DM likes to make us do Endurance checks for overland travel, etc. When you start with 7 surges and lose 4 of them to miscellaneous out-of-combat failures, you need to make the most of the remaining 3.
30 HP of healing from Potions, or 84 HP from Healing Word: your choice.
holywhitetrash
First Post
yes replacing a leader with healing potions is like replacing a surgeon with band aids
That's more apt than you might think. Surgeons are for planned situations, bandaids are for 'oops'.
Potions are great for getting you out of a sticky situation, but they'll never keep up with a cleric.
keterys
First Post
Just played four rounds at a convention with no leader, with some very dangerous combats. People fell down, things were exciting, but we just used Heal to trigger second wind a few times and used a 1/day majestic word that one character had a couple times, and all was well.
In fact, it was probably more exciting and interesting a game than if we'd had a healer. It is true that we did rest once to get healing surges back for someone who was low on total # of surges, and with a cleric around that character probably would have had another 2 surges left.
On the other hand, we didn't actually run out of surges before the in module obvious 'Rest Here!' point. We just got low. So, yeah, didn't _need_ a leader at all, while facing combats 3 levels above us.
In fact, it was probably more exciting and interesting a game than if we'd had a healer. It is true that we did rest once to get healing surges back for someone who was low on total # of surges, and with a cleric around that character probably would have had another 2 surges left.
On the other hand, we didn't actually run out of surges before the in module obvious 'Rest Here!' point. We just got low. So, yeah, didn't _need_ a leader at all, while facing combats 3 levels above us.
Con runs are a completely different animal than campaign runs though. Con runs are generic and generally run by someone who just read over the module and didn't design it or put much work in to it. I've had those mods go both ways more often than not, usually less dangerous than they appeared. Heck, a three wizard, warlord, bard, swordmage made absolute mincemeat out of what was supposed to be a very dangerous adventure with no grind.
The problem comes up with a well-designed encounter run by a good tactician who has a stake in challenging the party.
The problem comes up with a well-designed encounter run by a good tactician who has a stake in challenging the party.
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