D&D 5E How can players counter Mass Suggestion?

[Baldurs_Underdark]

Thanks all for the suggestions (da dum tsh).

The majority of you suggest that Mass Suggestion can best be countered with some prior knowledge. I cannot do that at this particular encounter - the surprise is important - so the particular NPC will be introduced later. I'll just replace him with one of his helpers in the upcoming encounter. Using Mass Suggestion without any advanced knowledge against this party seems like railroading, because the outcome is predictable.

I opened this thread to check if it was indeed so predictable, and I haven't read much that counters this idea. We'll have fun with it at another point in the campaign, when I have a chance to drop a few hints that people can mess with their minds.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

Forest for the trees... forest for the trees.

What I do not like is the mentality that players should be punished for character design, whether that design results in low wisdom saves, low wisdom scores, or low wisdom skills.

You're telling a great story together. The players are not trying to gain the DM's approval. The DM should not be attacking their 'poor PC design', but instead finding ways to work the design of the PCs into a great story.

This DOES NOT mean avoiding wisdom saves when there are low wisdom saves across the board. Instead, figure out how to make these challenges interesting and fun. See my suggestions above for more...

So, if everyone in your party decide that they are naturists and choose to wear no armour, you would make sure enemies didn't use weapons against them?


D&D is a game, as well as a story. At some point an enemy is going to cast a spell at the party that targets wisdom. If they enemy is intelligent and learns that everyone in the party is weak willed (which, as I have pointed out is actually quite difficult to achieve), they are going to make a point of doing so at every opportunity. The party needs to learn that they need to defend against such attacks, preferably before TPK, or the DM is stuck in the trap of nerfing pretty much every intelligent spellcasting enemy.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

The majority of you suggest that Mass Suggestion can best be countered with some prior knowledge.

It's only really "prior knowledge" in the sense that you put on your armour and draw your sword before going into a dungeon, on the "prior knowledge" that a monster might jump out and attack you!

 

[Baldurs_Underdark]

So, if everyone in your party decide that they are naturists and choose to wear no armour, you would make sure enemies didn't use weapons against them?

In our case, we are first and foremost writing a story together. The game elements come second. Yes, I would adapt the encounters to a party that decides to wear no armor, which coincidentally my players do. They're not naked, but most of them have no proficiency in armor at all, and only two have light armor. There are no tanks in this group. And all casters use charisma, and made wis somewhat of a dump stat. I can recommend DMing such a group: It is absolutely hilarious, if a little unbalanced. But man, it makes for a good story.

Btw, I am deliberately not giving away much in terms of the actual storyline, because some of the players lurk around these forums too, and by now they may have realized we're discussing them.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

In our case, we are first and foremost writing a story together. The game elements come second. Yes, I would adapt the encounters to a party that decides to wear no armor, which coincidentally my players do. They're not naked, but most of them have no proficiency in armor at all, and only two have light armor. There are no tanks in this group. And all casters use charisma, and made wis somewhat of a dump stat. I can recommend DMing such a group: It is absolutely hilarious, if a little unbalanced. But man, it makes for a good story.

Btw, I am deliberately not giving away much in terms of the actual storyline, because some of the players lurk around these forums too, and by now they may have realized we're discussing them.

Putting together a balanced party, where each character complements each other and covers for weaknesses, is a central component of D&D gameplay. If you play a very unconventional game, it's probably not going to be helpful asking for advice from other players, who almost certainly play very differently.


(Mechanically, a party of six bards and sorcerers shouldn't have any difficulty countering Mass Suggestion - there should be plenty of Counterspells and Dispel Magics).

 

[Quartz]

Btw, Mass Suggestion is really a Kryptonite to my players:

The antagonist sending the protagonists packing the first time they meet is a trope. So play it up! It makes Round Two all the sweeter for the players. The PCs then have to find a way to counter it. The monster should have its own Kryptonite. Or maybe they can just generate an anti-magic effect and beat it the hard way.

 

[jgsugden]

So, if everyone in your party decide that they are naturists and choose to wear no armour, you would make sure enemies didn't use weapons against them?

This is addressed in my last paragraph ... with capitalized letters to draw attention to it, even.

D&D is a game, as well as a story. At some point an enemy is going to cast a spell at the party that targets wisdom. If they enemy is intelligent and learns that everyone in the party is weak willed (which, as I have pointed out is actually quite difficult to achieve), they are going to make a point of doing so at every opportunity. The party needs to learn that they need to defend against such attacks, preferably before TPK, or the DM is stuck in the trap of nerfing pretty much every intelligent spellcasting enemy.

That is one way to tell the story... but there is a lot more than those few words to tell that story. How does the story unfold in a fun way beyond that approach? How do the low wisdom save PCs win the day? How does the DM create that story with the players.

D&D is a game in addition to a story, but that game is not DM versus players. It is DM and players creating interesting and fun challenges together. Picking on a weakness of a group and abusing them because of it is hard to make fun.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

How do the low wisdom save PCs win the day?

Quite easily, if the DM doesn't rule out any sort of preparation or the use of Counterspell…

Or retreating and coming back for a rematch...

Or being captured and having to escape...



It sounds to me that, rather than collaborative storytelling, this campaign is as on rails as a novel, with every outcome pre-decided by the DM.

 

[Eltab]

"Flee until sunset as far as you can unless you are wearing heavy armor, in which case you stay and fight."

Stop at the word "unless" and you get a reasonable Suggestion - especially if you are backed up by a squad of toughies or a Dragon.
Likewise, the last four words are good: the Suggester wants to eliminate the PCs here / now, not allow them to flee-prepare-return and bother him some more.

The complication of using both will give the PCs an extra chance to break out of it: "What does he want me to do?"

 

[Oofta]

When I set up opponents, I don't worry too much about how the party will respond. As long as I'm following basic CR guidelines, I give abilities and spells I think they should have and let the players respond to it.

On the flip side, if the players actively seek out information or if they can gather intelligence ahead of time they may be prepared but I'm not generally going to broadcast weaknesses ahead of time.

Something like mass suggestion is powerful, the first time it is used. After the first time there are potentially ways to counter it. But I also wouldn't make the assumption that the party will all fail or that they won't come up with some clever way of countering it.

Suggestion spells are difficult to adjudicate though, because it's based on the "reasonable" clause which is in the eye of the beholder.