D&D 5E How can warlock patrons teach things they don't know?

[Staffan]

They come into 5e with Rifts Mega Damage Capacity stats.

"oh, I'm sorry, you thought Cthulhu's claw attack did TWELVE damage? No, that's 1200 damage, and make a save vs. liquification."

I was thinking more like Rolemaster: "Cthulhu hits you for 24 and a D critical, which breaks your arm and gives you -25 to everything until it's healed."

 

[eryndel]

Really, if these are great old ones from beyond the walls of madness, shouldn't old Cthulhu's claws do 1d6*1000, cutting through three tenths since they are Midnight Sunstone?

 

[Mercule]

No, I have to strongly disagree here, can't even say how strongly.

The GOO may seem invincible if interacting mostly with a sissy word where people lose sanity from seeing a kuo-toa. If they wan't to swim outside their little pond they're faced with cosmic entities who can give them more than just a run for their money

I am so sick with this "GOOs are better than anything else" crap. Cthulhu was a DvR 5 demigod in 3.x and Azathoth a DvR 20 greater deity (by the slimest margin above the likes of Corellon, Moradin or Chauntea)

You're reading too much into my post. I actually really hate the Far Realm and all that goes with it. I use the 3.5 Tome of Magic concept of vestiges for the GOO pact, in my game. That one sentence was an afterthought and hand wave for something I didn't want to bother with.

 

[JackOfAllTirades]

Some questions provide their own answers. Can a patron teach a warlock something the patron doesn't know to begin with?

In a word, NO. It's a logical impossibility.

Where does this leave us? If your warlock just learned X, Y, and Z, but Orcus (or whoever) doesn't know X, Y, or Z... then obviously Orcus can't possibly be his patron! Your warlock's patron is some other entity who actually knows all those things. Work it out with the GM, and yes, this means your patron is, of necessity, an extra-planar entity with all the powers of a 20th level warlock, and then some.

Don't make it angry.

 

[Hand of Evil]

Some questions provide their own answers. Can a patron teach a warlock something the patron doesn't know to begin with?

In a word, NO. It's a logical impossibility.

Where does this leave us? If your warlock just learned X, Y, and Z, but Orcus (or whoever) doesn't know X, Y, or Z... then obviously Orcus can't possibly be his patron! Your warlock's patron is some other entity who actually knows all those things. Work it out with the GM, and yes, this means your patron is, of necessity, an extra-planar entity with all the powers of a 20th level warlock, and then some.

Don't make it angry.

To me Orcus would just have a minion provide the knowledge or download the knowledge from a tome to the player. Sure they may be side effects but that is to be expected. Storytelling and roleplaying, I would have the player prove that they are worthy of the information with quest.

 

[MonsterEnvy]

I've had success with dragons by house-ruling every dragon above wyrmling with at least a few class levels in dragon sorcerer. Not only is it more logical, it also makes them exponentially tougher and more versatile due to things like Counterspell, Shield, blindsight + Darkness, and Quickened Hold Person V.

Having looked at Orcus's stats, I'm quite sure I'd want to do something similar. An Orcus who cannot even scry, or get out of a forcecage, is not an Orcus I respect, even if he does have billions of lich slaves whom I do respect.

Orcus's has stuff that scry's for him. Force Cage is not even close to a threat to him as well. He can just dispel it as he has dispel magic.


On the topic. The Patron does not need be a warlock or even have warlock powers. The relationship between a Patron and Warlock is not even one of master and servant. (Though it can be)

Take the Brimstone Angels series. The main character is a Warlock who made a pact with a Cambion. In the grand scheme of Hell he is not even impressive. Hell the main character is actually more powerful then him now.

 

[The Human Target]

That would be a cool idea for Great Old Ones: they are so alien that they use stats from a different system.

"Wait a second, is Dagon using Runequest rules!?"

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

Orcus's has stuff that scry's for him. Force Cage is not even close to a threat to him as well. He can just dispel it as he has dispel magic.

Dispel Magic doesn't work on Forcecage. See the last sentence of the Forcecage description.

I don't know what you mean by "stuff that scries for him." You mean, conjured liches?

On the topic. The Patron does not need be a warlock or even have warlock powers. The relationship between a Patron and Warlock is not even one of master and servant. (Though it can be)

Take the Brimstone Angels series. The main character is a Warlock who made a pact with a Cambion. In the grand scheme of Hell he is not even impressive. ---- the main character is actually more powerful then him now.

I think that is precisely what the OP is objecting to. Or if not objecting, looking for a good justification.

Another way to fluff it is that warlocks get access to raw power, let's say a torture rack of souls, and every time they call upon their patron's power, a lever turns somewhere and a little bit more soul-juice gets squeezed out. So the warlock is still dependent on their patron in the same way my laptop is dependent upon a hydroelectric dam for electricity--but my laptop can do things with that electricity that the hydroelectric dam cannot, on its own. Power != skill.

Hopefully the warlock is just a little bit squicked out when he eventually discovers where the juice for his spells really comes from.

 

[MonsterEnvy]

Dispel Magic doesn't work on Forcecage. See the last sentence of the Forcecage description.

I don't know what you mean by "stuff that scries for him." You mean, conjured liches?

Did not notice that. Ok then I will give him a teleport. As for stuff that scries for him conjured lichs are just one option, he no doubt owns a few scrying orbs.

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

Did not notice that. Ok then I will give him a teleport. As for stuff that scries for him conjured lichs are just one option, he no doubt owns a few scrying orbs.

Yeah, teleport is a good start. Make it a nice beefy long-range teleport while you're at it. None of this "120 foot teleport" garbage that lets you teleport at a speed of 13 mph.