How come all the Epic spells suck?

[Vrecknidj]

Even back in 2e (probably back in 1e) I figured that there was a simple way to progress spells beyond 9th. Here's my line of thought for 3e.

We don't need Epic Spells (in part, like you said, because most of them suck). We can just have spells of 10th level and above that aren't simply feat-enhanced versions of 9th and lower spells. So, in effect, any spell of 10th level or higher (that isn't feat-enhanced, is "epic" because we house rule that you have to have 21 levels in a spell-casting class to qualify).

1) The DMG shows nice little tables for damage caps per spell level--this can be extended indefinitely.

2) If you compare the differences between a Limited Wish and a Wish, you can then create another spell (Greater Wish?) that's perhaps 11th level, that's proportionately more powerful than the Wish, as Wish was to Limited Wish.

3) For every chain of spells that's already out there, we extend the chain. For example, from Burning Hands, through Fireball, to Meteor Swarm could eventually emerge spells that cause clouds to rain fire instead of water, or that, instead of briefly tapping the plane of fire to evoke damage, tap that plane a little longer (a region the size of a fireball that lasts for a few rounds).

4) Since there are already spells that create things like undead, 10th level and higher spells could create really nasty undead, things far tougher than a spectre or wraith. Create Greater Undead is an 8th level spell, making a single devourer in the case of a 20th level caster. I'm thinking that as, say, a 12th level variant, some necromancer could create one very scary undead.

I read through the Epic Spells when I got the ELH months ago and thought "Hmm, that's a screwy way to do things."

Dave

 

[Chris Parker]

Sorry Parker, but despite how epic that iaijutsu focused character looks, he can't even come close. Unless the DM decides to allow the character to be purposly broken and makes a funky house rule, unless he does that, the maximum extra damage you can get is +9d6 with a roll of 50+. WotC probably saw your idea coming, as did I when I first thought of the skill. Thankfully the editors there have common sense

Despite it only being +9d6, with your uber-munchkin dervish multiclass, 4 attacks per weapon (x2), and all those bonus feats the character would have by now (those not spent on improving the character's iaijutsu focus and initiative), it would be a formidable foe indeed for that very first round of combat. After that, it'd probably just be another bloke swinging a sword.

But please continue with the epic level spellcasting discussion. It's giving me lots of good ideas ^^

Well of course they saw that coming, but what Iajitsu Master worth his salt hasnt checked the WotC website just to make sure they didnt forget?

Well... They did.

Improved Iaijutsu Focus (Epic)

The maximum bonus damage you gain for using Iaijutsu Focus increases.

Prerequisite: Iaijutsu Focus 27 ranks.

Benefit: The extra damage you inflict when you make an Iaijutsu Focus check no longer has a maximum die cap. The progression of extra damage continues indefinitely, increasing by +1d6 for every 5 points over a result of 10 you receive on the check. For example, an Iaijutsu Focus check of 76 would inflict +14d6 points of damage.

Normal: Without this feat, the most extra damage you can gain with an Iaijutsu Focus check is +9d6.

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ei/20030902a

You can surpass 9d6 Though that really should be reworked... so that there is a cap on die based on your level. Half level sounds good. (this makes it so that Iajitsu is a good class, instead of a ridiculously unbalanced class).

Also... heres a variant to make Rogues a bit nastier. Give them a class skill called Critical Strike, give them extra damage based off of thier result (as per an Iajitsu Master) instead of the silly '+3d6 sneak attack damage' stuff. Dont think sneak attacks should be skill based? Hell, scry is, and it seems to me Crit Strike would be a great, logical place for rogues to dump all those skill points into...

Vrecknidj, I highly agree with you on that. The game makes alot more sense if you look at it as a continuing (usually) linear equation. I think the ELH was trying to make it so that you could create your own spells that mixed and matched different abilities. ie- Create a spell that buffs you and debuffs the enemy at the same time as launching a mass teleport spell, or some such (just think of it! a wizard, all with one spell, teleports in on the sleeping PC party, debuffs them, and hits them with a nuke! Obviously, hes been buffed before he came =P )

(Also, before I forget, my IajitsuMaster/Dervish (with the obligatory 2 levels in blackguard for the massive saves ) runs around with dual souldrinkers. And as was confirmed by my post in a different forum (on this board - http://www.enworld.org/forums/showthread.php?t=88842) the extra HP stacks. 2d4x5= avg 25 hp / hit. 18 attacks that (with my hitroll) are guaranteed to hit if I can catch em flatfooted... thats an extra 450 hp for me right there.)

Now, heres the issue that really gets me. In the DMG, it shows you how much it costs to add certain spells with varying caster levels, effects, uses per day, methods of activation, etc etc onto items.

The formula for a Use Activated item (ie, no command word, it just goes to work when you use it) is Spell lvl * Caster lvl * 2000. Hmmm.

Unless Im mistaken (again, I do not own any DnD books) one of the examples given for Use Activated items is 'swinging a sword', and even if it isnt, it only makes sense. But.. that isnt close to balanced.

Magic Missile is a weak spell. At mid-high end, it simply wont deal much damage. At 9th level it caps at 5d4+5 force damage. But, it seems it would only cost 18K to add Magic Missile onto a bow/sword (down to 2K for 1d4+1 force damage).

But lets say your DM makes you check for spell resistance everytime you fire that bow. Well, that sucks, but... for essentially NOTHING at epic, you have a chance (so what if it very well might be a 5% chance?) to deal considerably more damage.

Heres an idea. Dont Frenzied Berserkers get an ability that lets them keep on going as long as they are raging ('scuse me, frenzied) no matter what thier HP is? Imagine a Raged, Frenzied, Half Orc Two Handing a (Mercurial Greatsword, Maul, Fullblade, Scythe, etc etc) that causes a fireball everytime he hits with it, with the point of impact where he hit. That NPC wouldnt be around for too long (unless he has a very nice cleric friend with ALOT of heal spells backed up with true ressurections) but hed waste a party in no time... if they werent smart enough to flee.

Now. This brings up an interesting question... what about abilities like that on items... cept for EPIC spells?

Well, some adjustments would HAVE to be made. You cant just blanket all Epic spells as the same spell level... saying that an unaltered Destroy seed is as powerful as a Destroy seed with d20's of damage instead is plain silly (also, think of how CHEAP a tenth level spell would be at epic to add onto a weapon/armor). So youd have to come up with a method to determine the spells effective level based off of its spellcraft DC.

Any suggestions?

I tried using Destroy as a base seed, and when I thought I had found an acceptable formula, I went over to energy to check and see if it still made sense... and it was a no go.

But heres an idea. Effective Spell Level = 10 + 1/2 days to develop? (or cost to develop / 100,000 if you prefer, or spellcraft DC / 11). Its not -exactly- right, (Vengeful Gaze of God would be level 48 spell for this equation effectively, but then again my 40d20 contigency spell is only level 16 by this reasoning...)

Ill run with it for a while. Lets say you have a DC in the low 60's. Totally reasonable, even for a only moderate powergamer. Thats 12 days, so 16 effective spell level.

Add this onto an armor. 16*30*2K*10. Well just assume a level 30 caster, and the ten multiplied in there is everyones favorite thing in the whole world - the epic price modifier. *sigh*

This is 9.6Million gold. For a spell that does a SIGNIFICANT amount of damage (even if they save on thier save).

Lets see, what if the person had decided that all epic spells really were 10th level? Then that just makes it that much cheaper - 6Million.

Hmmm. I dont think I need to tell you people how broken that could become.

And Behold, The Tank Did Not Die
Seed: FORTIFY
Transmutation
Spellcraft DC: 17 (base), +99 extra enhancement bonus to Constitution (+198 DC), three additional participants contributing 9th level spell slots (-51 DC), increase casting time by 10 minutes (-20 DC) = 144
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 11 minutes
Range: Touch
Target or effect: Creature Touched
Duration: 20 hours
Saving Throw: Will negates (harmless)
Spell Resistance: No (harmless)

Target touched creature gains a +100 enhancement bonus to Constitution.

To Develop: 1,296,000 gp; 26 days; 51,840 XP.

Thats a +100 enhancement bonus to Con. Thats a +50 mod. That gives a level 30 character 1,500 extra HP.

Someone humor me and tell me... how much HP does your average greater diety have?

~Chris.

 

[bolie]

Mythmere,

Each increase in area is additive, so 9 100% increases adds 9 x 4 = 36 10' cubes. So you get a total of 40 10' cubes. You could get 30' x 30' by 10' below ground and 35' above ground. Or 40' x 40' x 5' underground and 20' above ground.

You're better off going with a 20' radius and upping it by 9 100% area increases. This gives you a nice 200' radius sphere.

Bolie IV