How common are truly EPIC Monsters...

[Upper_Krust]

Hey all,

I know a bit of a random post here. But I am designing parts of my new (Epic Level) Adventure Bestiary (for 5E) and its becoming obvious that not all the monsters I have planned can be epic and even more obvious that not all of them should even be epic.

I'm working under the following assumption:

Intermediate God= CR 27-30
Lesser God = CR 24-27
Demigod = CR 20-24
Quasi-Deity = CR 17-20
Hero-Deity = CR 14-17

Obviously there is a slight overlap there, also CR is not the same thing as Level - eyeballing it looks to be approx. 1 CR = x1.5 Levels.

But in putting together the Adventure Bestiary I'd guesstimate maybe half the 30-40 entries are CR 10-20.

Now looking at the 5E Monster Manual, outside of Dragons there is a complete dearth of monsters above CR 10. I don't know how much this was solved in later sourcebooks (?) but personally I don't like numerical inflation for its own sake. A monster's power should make sense in the context of its ecology and vice versa.

One monster in this Bestiary is the Varcolac a sort of Planar Werewolf-Vampire hybrid. Such a monster may already exist in 5E, although whether they do or not I have my own ideas for them. But I don't see myself justifying them at higher than CR 12 - which is lower than the CR 13 Vampire in the MM (although that was clearly a Vampire Lord and not a regular vampire).

Anyone have any thoughts on Monster Challenge Rating in 5E?

 

[aco175]

Looking at your chart, I may want to add 10 to each of those CRs. A demi-god like Hercules should not be something a group of 8th level PCs can kill easily. Maybe there is a way/quest to affect him and lower his CR, but an epic monster should not be something one runs towards until tier 4- tier 3 if they are sacrificing themselves.

There can be a lot of epic powers to add to monsters like legendary powers and feats that only they qualify for.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Howdy aco175!

Looking at your chart, I may want to add 10 to each of those CRs.

Why though? Personally I think there are a lot of discrepancies within various CRs.

ie. Lich CR 21, Orcus CR 26

I think the Lich should be in around CR 12+.

But if the question is do we base everything around the exaggerated CRs like the Lich (and thus gods in the CR 30+ region). Or do we base everything around the likes of Orcus (a Lesser Power) being CR 26.

I prefer the latter because:
1. The former is simply number inflation
2. The latter makes Epic play more accessible

A demi-god like Hercules should not be something a group of 8th level PCs can kill easily.

I agree. But I don't see 99.99% of Level 8 groups defeating 'my' version of Hercules even if I placed him in the CR 20-24 bracket.

Maybe there is a way/quest to affect him and lower his CR, but an epic monster should not be something one runs towards until tier 4- tier 3 if they are sacrificing themselves.

But that brings into call what is an Epic Monster?

If an epic PC is Level 21 (Or Level 20 with epic boons) then surely by default an epic monster is anything that can 'challenge' a group of such characters.

There can be a lot of epic powers to add to monsters like legendary powers and feats that only they qualify for.

Well maybe...of course players could themselves become deities and gain those powers.

 

[FieryDragonLord]

This might be helpful in comparing CR's - Monsters for Dungeons & Dragons (D&D) Fifth Edition (5e) - D&D Beyond

I think your assumption is pretty sound based on the CRs for the high tier threats we've seen so far (Demon Lords/Archdevils ~ 21-26 and Tiamat at 30). CR 21-25 as Demigods and 26-30 as Lesser Gods is what I've been using for a general guideline.

Why though? Personally I think there are a lot of discrepancies within various CRs.

ie. Lich CR 21, Orcus CR 26

I think the Lich should be in around CR 12+.

I just assume that the Lich presented in the monster manual was an example of an apex lich rather than the average.

 

[the Jester]

Anyone have any thoughts on Monster Challenge Rating in 5E?

Hey U_K!

I agree that there is a real dearth of epic monsters in 5e, but also that most monsters don't need to be epic. I've converted hundreds, maybe thousands, of monsters from older editions and my own homebrews, and here are the epic critters on my "monsters by CR" list, including those from the MM. As you can see, I've gone up to CR 42; but that includes any number of things that I put in the "god-killer" category in my own mind. Not even all the monsters from the 4e Epic Level Handbook qualify, in my mind.

CR 21:
1 Ancient Black Dragon
2 Ancient Copper Dragon
3 Ancient Shen Lung (Dragon)
4 Bile Beast
5 Ethros War Master
6 Krakentua
7 Lich (Not in Lair)
8 Solar (Angel)
9 Spawn of Ulban (Star Spawn)
10 Tertian (Modron)
11 Thorciasid
12 Umbral Blot
13 Winterwight

CR 22:
1 Ancient Blizzard Dragon
2 Ancient Bronze Dragon
3 Ancient Crystal Dragon
4 Ancient Green Dragon
5 Anicent Purple Dragon
6 Ancient Sapphire Dragon
7 Ancient Tun Mi Lung (Dragon)
8 Leshay
9 Lich (in Lair)
10 Mind Flayer Lich (Alhoon Variant)
11 Primeval Ooze
12 Prismatic Marauder

CR 23:
1 Afanc (Fish)
2 Ancient Amethyst Dragon
3 Ancient Blue Dragon
4 Ancient Earthquake Dragon
5 Ancient Pan Lung (Dragon)
6 Ancient Silver Dragon
7 Ancient Steel Dragon
8 Astral Dreadnought
9 Empyrean
10 Hagumemnon
11 Island Shark Eye (Gargantuan)
12 Kraken
13 Phane (Abomination)
14 Secondus (Modron)
15 Tidal Intellect
16 Varakhut (Inevitable)

CR 24:
1 Adamantine Horror (Clockwork Horror)
2 Adult Moth Kaiju (Gargantuan)
3 Ancient Chiang Lung (Dragon)
4 Ancient Emerald Dragon
5 Ancient Gold Dragon
6 Ancient Gray Dragon
7 Ancient Red Dragon
8 Ancient Topaz Dragon
9 Atropal (Abomination)
10 Devastation Centipede (Gargantuan)
11 Jabberwock
12 Nightcrawler (Nightshade)
13 Paeliryon (Devil)
14 Sirrush
15 Toxis
16 White Slaad

CR 25:
1 Ancient T'ien Lung (Dragon)
2 Bile Lord
3 Earthquake Spirit of Disaster
4 Flood Spirit of Disaster
5 Hellfire Engine
6 Island Shark Gill (Gargantuan)
7 Kaijudrakken (Gargantuan)
8 Storm That Walks (Abomination)
9 Worm That Walks
10 Yellow Lich (Lich)

CR 26:
1 Ancient Howling Dragon
2 Ancient Li Lung (Dragon)
3 Ancient Lung Wang (Dragon)
4 Elder Phaerimm
5 Ethros Mage
6 Mithral Golem

CR 28:
1 Black Slaad
2 Uvuudaum

CR 29:
1 Infernal (Abomination)

CR 30:
1 Island Shark Fin (Gargantuan)
2 Tarrasque

CR 31:
1 Island Shark Mouth (Gargantuan)

CR 38:
1 Cometary Impact Spirit of Disaster

CR 42:
1 Hecatoncheires (Abomination)

So although you are not going to be familiar with all the creatures listed, given that there are a number of homebrews, you can see what it takes to be on this list in my opinion- which is way more than merely 'being a bad ass monster'. It needs to be a monster that can face up to a Power, or that destroy a city or even country, or that is big enough to swallow an island, etc. "I'm a super tough vampire" ain't enough, in my judgement- "I am a vampire who can slay everyone in a city overnight" would do it. "I'm a really tough monster" won't get you on the list- "I'm so tough that even an army is hopeless against me" might.

(I think the tarrasque is over-rated in CR terms; I wish they'd carried some of its 4e no-really-I'm-worth-this-high-of-a-CR traits over into 5e.)

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hey FieryDragonLord matey!

Trust you are keeping well?

This might be helpful in comparing CR's - Monsters for Dungeons & Dragons (D&D) Fifth Edition (5e) - D&D Beyond

Thanks for that its a good reference - and basically confirms my thinking. The various Dragons and the Lich are padded out to give the book something in the higher CRs.

I think your assumption is pretty sound based on the CRs for the high tier threats we've seen so far (Demon Lords/Archdevils ~ 21-26 and Tiamat at 30). CR 21-25 as Demigods and 26-30 as Lesser Gods is what I've been using for a general guideline.

I have been using a 5 'Level' jump for deities myself but in terms of CRs that equates to around 3.33

I just assume that the Lich presented in the monster manual was an example of an apex lich rather than the average.

Agreed but it doesn't make sense for the Lich (and the Vampire). They should have had the LOWEST CR versions of those to increase their use.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hey U_K!

Howdy Jester amigo!

I agree that there is a real dearth of epic monsters in 5e, but also that most monsters don't need to be epic. I've converted hundreds, maybe thousands, of monsters from older editions and my own homebrews, and here are the epic critters on my "monsters by CR" list, including those from the MM. As you can see, I've gone up to CR 42; but that includes any number of things that I put in the "god-killer" category in my own mind. Not even all the monsters from the 4e Epic Level Handbook qualify, in my mind.

I was thinking exactly the same - even some of my IH: Epic Bestiary monsters wouldn't necessarily be CR 20+

Also 'Yellow Lich'? Is that a homebrew?

So although you are not going to be familiar with all the creatures listed, given that there are a number of homebrews, you can see what it takes to be on this list in my opinion- which is way more than merely 'being a bad ass monster'. It needs to be a monster that can face up to a Power, or that destroy a city or even country, or that is big enough to swallow an island, etc. "I'm a super tough vampire" ain't enough, in my judgement- "I am a vampire who can slay everyone in a city overnight" would do it. "I'm a really tough monster" won't get you on the list- "I'm so tough that even an army is hopeless against me" might.

Its interesting to contrast the movie Kraken (from the more recent Clash of the Titans movie) with the D&D version. The movie monster seems like a proper Country-level threat.

Godzilla is a strong City-level threat.

The Tarrasque seems more like a Town-level threat.

(I think the tarrasque is over-rated in CR terms; I wish they'd carried some of its 4e no-really-I'm-worth-this-high-of-a-CR traits over into 5e.)

I think the Dragons are probably the biggest offenders, but yes the Tarrasque could have been scarier.

 

[the Jester]

Also 'Yellow Lich'? Is that a homebrew?

Yes, a conversion of a homebrew from waaaay back in the 1e days. Here's my flavor text (brief though it may be- I haven't actually used this monster since 1e, but I try to have a version of every monster that has ever played an important role in my game for the current edition):

YELLOW LICH
As a lich ages, its physical form slowly grows weaker. Some liches simply pass on to an afterlife, while others become demiliches. Still others try to maintain their form via a variety of magical rituals or techniques. A yellow lich is an ancient form of lich that wraps its bones in long strips of parchment set with magical glyphs of preservation. This scrollwork helps it maintain its form, reinforcing its body with dweomers that strengthen the bones and help it heal quickly. This has the added effect of increasing the lich's physical power, making it a surprisingly effective melee combatant. A yellow lich is usually less interested in interacting with the outside world than a younger lich, typically preferring to spend its time in reclusive study.

It's not the best example of what I think really qualifies/should qualify as a good epic monster in 5e; it's a lich+.

My favorite is the island shark- a gargantuan shark big enough to swallow an island whole, that is so gigantic that you have to defeat its various body parts, each of which is treated as a separate epic monster:

ISLAND SHARK
An island shark is one of the largest monsters known. It is so big that it can consume an entire small island in a single bite. When an island shark appears in a region, the blood of the people of that region runs cold, for all know that the island shark's voracious appetites are difficult to fulfill, and the monster is so large as to be almost impossible to drive off.
Too Big: An island shark is so large that it can't be fought as a whole being. Instead, driving off an island shark requires attacking and defeating several of its body parts: one of its eyes, its mouth, its fin, and one of its gills. If enough damage can be inflicted to all of these parts of its body, it can be driven off. Even while this is being done, most creatures are so small that the shark doesn't actually engage them in combat; however, merely being close to such a behemoth is dangerous, as it continually moves, creating intense currents and other dangerous effects, bumping into nearby things as it moves, etc. Its skin is rough and abrasive, so its merest touch is dangerous.
Otherwise, an island shark will eventually feed on a land mass. It is almost ten miles long, with a gaping maw two miles across. It takes about a day for the shark to take a bite, but when it does, it destroys a two-mile diameter sphere of the land mass, killing or swallowing whole every living thing on it. Creatures swallowed might be able to escape, but the island shark's belly often contains its own ecosystem full of predators (including smaller sharks, aquatic oozes, etc).

Each of the parts that have to be defeated has, among other things, a version of this trait:

Part of a Greater Whole. The fin is but a part of a truly gigantic monster. The fin is a triangle with sides roughly measuring 1 mile each, beneath or above which the rest of the shark effectively forms a landscape.
If the fin is reduced to 0 hit points, it stops moving, and that part of the island shark is defeated. Only if one eye, one gill, its mouth, and its fin are all defeated within 24 hours can the island shark be driven away.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Apologies for the slow reply amigo - been working the last few days.

Yes, a conversion of a homebrew from waaaay back in the 1e days. Here's my flavor text (brief though it may be- I haven't actually used this monster since 1e, but I try to have a version of every monster that has ever played an important role in my game for the current edition):

That's pretty cool. I am considering a scroll-cloak item in this Adventure Bestiary. One of the segments indirectly has a book theme.

It's not the best example of what I think really qualifies/should qualify as a good epic monster in 5e; it's a lich+.

What about the name "Scrollich"?

My favorite is the island shark- a gargantuan shark big enough to swallow an island whole, that is so gigantic that you have to defeat its various body parts, each of which is treated as a separate epic monster:

Each of the parts that have to be defeated has, among other things, a version of this trait:

I've got two BIG monsters for this next book - I need to hunt out my Mega-size notes.

 

[the Jester]

What about the name "Scrollich"?

Sounds kind of like a, what do you call it, that monster that was made of old expended magic items... aargh, its name escapes me. From the 3e MM3, IIRC- and the 4e version was sort of an old lich that had used old scrolls and stuff to extend its "lifespan"... Hold on, this is driving me crazy. I don't have the old books here- I'm at my gf's- but let me check my list of conversions...

Aha! The grisgol!