How common are truly EPIC Monsters...

[Upper_Krust]

Hey all,

Been designing some encounters but taking advantage of the 5E Encounter rules (in particular the XP Multiplier for multiple creatures) seems to yield very weak results. Considering ignoring that particular rule.

Has anyone any experience of this, I talked to a DM friend of mine and he ignores it completely.

 

[Upper_Krust]

So writing one of the chapters of the new book and in designing some scenarios I really want to use an Atropal (or multiple Atropals) for one of the encounters (you'll see why when you read it).

Anyway (to cut a long story short) I checked out the 5E Atropal and I don't think there is anything official but there are certainly two versions out there.

1. The first version is CR 30
2. The second version is CR 13

For those who don't recall, the Atropal was in the Epic Level Handbook and was CR 30.

Measuring the original against deities themselves and we can place the Atropal in the ballpark of being a relatively weak Demigod. In terms of 5th Edition demigods are between CR 20-24 (in my opinion - and corroborated by various entries). So a CR of 20 seems about appropriate for it.

So my bewilderment is how the heck did the converters settle on CR 30 and CR 13 respectively?

 

[Alzrius]

So my bewilderment is how the heck did the converters settle on CR 30 and CR 13 respectively?

Hey U_K!

The CR 30 seems like an attempt to directly convert the original atropal from the ELH. As for the CR 13 version (which I believe is from Tomb of Annihilation), my guess is that it's actually the "atropal scion" from the 3.5 book Libris Mortis, which was CR 11.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hey U_K!

Howdy Alzrius amigo!

The CR 30 seems like an attempt to directly convert the original atropal from the ELH.

Yes, I suppose that much is understandable.

As for the CR 13 version (which I believe is from Tomb of Annihilation), my guess is that it's actually the "atropal scion" from the 3.5 book Libris Mortis, which was CR 11.

Interesting. Is that book any good...epic-ally speaking?

 

[Alzrius]

Interesting. Is that book any good...epic-ally speaking?

Unfortunately no. While the atropal scion is interesting in that it's basically the astral worm to the atropal's cogent (i.e. it's a cast-off piece of an actual atropal), that's about as epic as it gets. The book has no CR 20+ monsters, no epic spells, no epic-level NPCs that I recall, etc. While I suppose there are a few points of inspiration (e.g. some comparatively weak undead gods, though only with basic clerical information), that's about as epic as it gets.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hey Alzrius mate!

Unfortunately no. While the atropal scion is interesting in that it's basically the astral worm to the atropal's cogent (i.e. it's a cast-off piece of an actual atropal), that's about as epic as it gets. The book has no CR 20+ monsters, no epic spells, no epic-level NPCs that I recall, etc. While I suppose there are a few points of inspiration (e.g. some comparatively weak undead gods, though only with basic clerical information), that's about as epic as it gets.

Sounds disappointing. Epic gaming always gets the shaft.

I may just make my own Atropal-esque monster for the new book.

Currently there are 3 sections each with 12-13 relevant monsters per section. Was hoping to make the book 64 pages but in true Krust fashion it looks like ballooning to 96. Grrr.

One of the big 'issues' I have is that in writing these encounters for a Level 20 party, is that half the monsters are below CR 20. Its just unavoidable. I'll try to keep most of those CR 10+ since even the CR 10-20 official monster list is lacking.

 

[Rhuarc]

Well, I'll try to give a somewhat objective reply here, seeing as my personal scaling for CRs goes to 50+. Neither advisable nor really applicable for an actual product which customers should hopefully want to buy

In my opinion should you disregard the CRs of published books and rather focus on having the level of the monsters make sense for your own vision, even if that means there might be some awkward comparisons here and there. If your take of the planar werewolf is around CR 12, then go for it!

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hello again amigo!

Well, I'll try to give a somewhat objective reply here, seeing as my personal scaling for CRs goes to 50+. Neither advisable nor really applicable for an actual product which customers should hopefully want to buy

Well you could always throw in maybe a single ridiculously high CR monster into an official product just for fun. But I agree it wouldn't be feasible at this point to do a whole book with crazy CRs.

In my opinion should you disregard the CRs of published books and rather focus on having the level of the monsters make sense for your own vision, even if that means there might be some awkward comparisons here and there. If your take of the planar werewolf is around CR 12, then go for it!

That's more or less what I was thinking. I like my monster's to have power that makes sense and there has to be a good reason why something would be as individually powerful as a demigod.

You can have races that powerful (and I do) but (CR 20+ ) epic level encounters (especially in 5e ) don't always need epic monsters.

CR 12 seems about right for the basic Varcolac...of course I have woven together lots of mythological wolf monsters under the 'umbrella' of the Varcolac as relatives and as you would imagine they get more powerful.

 

[RPWT]

Maybe irrelevant here,but I want ask UK about what proper quantity ratio between True dragon and Epic dragon?

 

[Upper_Krust]

Maybe irrelevant here,but I want ask UK about what proper quantity ratio between True dragon and Epic dragon?

Howdy RPWT,

Do you mean the demographic ratio as in how many epic dragons there are for each true dragon?

In 3E demographics usually its 1 of each higher CR for every 2 of the preceeding CR.

As in for every two CR 19 dragons there would be one CR 20 dragon and so forth.

Essentially the epic dragons are mostly regarded as the gods of the dragons, a 20 point CR difference means 1 (of the higher CR) for every million (of 20 CR lower).

Does that answer your question?