How Complex Should D&D Be?
- Thread starter Oni
- Start date
Jack Daniel
Legend
Another vote for considerably less complexity than 3e. It was something of a lightbulb moment for me that if you have a thief class in the game, you don't need a ninja class or a scout class or even (really) a bard class. So 3e, 2e, 1e... all of them out the window, and it's Classic D&D for me. It's got the baseline five (fighters, mages, clerics, thieves, and monks), and that's all you need.
TheNovaLord
First Post
somewhat less than 3e/4e
-I want it to be so i dont need anything electronic to make a character sheet, in a decent time.
-i dont need to print out power cards, and have 15 in front of me when im only 5th level
- i dont need a nicely laminated stack of condition cards and a pile of colured buttons/markers AND still need to track hp with a pencil seperately.
3rd has some pretty complex BIG maths.... i have 4 iterative attacks against something with 50% concealment...too much dice and numbers
4th has lots of simple SMALL maths....you get +1 to this for a round unless saves x 6 PC's....if you ever watch a 4th ed game the number of little +1's missed by all racks up, even if everyone has cards and coloured markers for everything.
BUT slightly more choices/additions than AD&D/BECMI
I never played 2nd as i play non D&D for that 10 year stretch
-I want it to be so i dont need anything electronic to make a character sheet, in a decent time.
-i dont need to print out power cards, and have 15 in front of me when im only 5th level
- i dont need a nicely laminated stack of condition cards and a pile of colured buttons/markers AND still need to track hp with a pencil seperately.
3rd has some pretty complex BIG maths.... i have 4 iterative attacks against something with 50% concealment...too much dice and numbers
4th has lots of simple SMALL maths....you get +1 to this for a round unless saves x 6 PC's....if you ever watch a 4th ed game the number of little +1's missed by all racks up, even if everyone has cards and coloured markers for everything.
BUT slightly more choices/additions than AD&D/BECMI
I never played 2nd as i play non D&D for that 10 year stretch
JeffB
Legend
3.X and it's derivatives are WAYYYY too complex for my tastes.
4E is much better from a DM'ing perspective for me and I love the game, but I'd still prefer something less complex. I love that in 4E pretty much everything I need to run a monster fully is in the stat block. Nothing pisses me off more than having to reference conditions/effects/abilities in one book, spells in another, etc. to run a monster.
Somewhere between C&C and 4E would be good.
4E is much better from a DM'ing perspective for me and I love the game, but I'd still prefer something less complex. I love that in 4E pretty much everything I need to run a monster fully is in the stat block. Nothing pisses me off more than having to reference conditions/effects/abilities in one book, spells in another, etc. to run a monster.
Somewhere between C&C and 4E would be good.
The base mechanic for 4e is what I want. That they are currently throwing 5-6 books at you a year with new classes/feats is ok - they are optional.
3e had a bit too many fiddely bits like high-level spellcasting. - Yeah polymorph and shapechange, I am talking to you!
I voted for slightly less complexity.
3e had a bit too many fiddely bits like high-level spellcasting. - Yeah polymorph and shapechange, I am talking to you!
I voted for slightly less complexity.
re
I prefer slightly greater complexity. And as Pathfinder has shown, you can attain greater complexity with clarification and simplification. The CMD vs. CMB mechanic has greatly simplified a 3E headache while still allowing the characters to utilize classic fantasy combat maneuvers. They have also clarified exactly how the maneuvers work so there are few gray areas.
I also like a fighting style to feel like a fighting style. Not like an artificial mechanic that doesn't make sense. That requires at least a little bit of complexity. Same with a spell system. I'm still hoping D&D at some point moves away from a Vancian system or the 4E metagame system to a system more common to fantasy books where the wizard learns spells as a skill or power and can use them up to a specified limit in any combination he wishes. That would be an ideal magic system and would simplify the magic system while still keeping the overall spell strategy complexity.
And maybe do away with the AC mechanic for hits and move to more of a set defensive system. I think D&D might be the only major game system that still uses a mechanic like AC for combat exchanges. As long as D&D maintains its adventure and game support, it will never lose its place in the market. Adventure and game support are what keep other game systems from taking market share from D&D.
I prefer slightly greater complexity. And as Pathfinder has shown, you can attain greater complexity with clarification and simplification. The CMD vs. CMB mechanic has greatly simplified a 3E headache while still allowing the characters to utilize classic fantasy combat maneuvers. They have also clarified exactly how the maneuvers work so there are few gray areas.
I also like a fighting style to feel like a fighting style. Not like an artificial mechanic that doesn't make sense. That requires at least a little bit of complexity. Same with a spell system. I'm still hoping D&D at some point moves away from a Vancian system or the 4E metagame system to a system more common to fantasy books where the wizard learns spells as a skill or power and can use them up to a specified limit in any combination he wishes. That would be an ideal magic system and would simplify the magic system while still keeping the overall spell strategy complexity.
And maybe do away with the AC mechanic for hits and move to more of a set defensive system. I think D&D might be the only major game system that still uses a mechanic like AC for combat exchanges. As long as D&D maintains its adventure and game support, it will never lose its place in the market. Adventure and game support are what keep other game systems from taking market share from D&D.
Start with d20 Modern
1.
a. ditch both Level drain and XP costs for casting spells and magic item creation.
b. Buff/Debuffs and Fatigue Exhaustion. Instead of modifying the ability score just give a straight modifier to rolls, temp hit points (for con) etc. For example, if the bonus was +2 Dex, it becomes +1 to all Dex based rolls and Reflex saves
2. Race
a. add DND races, but the non-biological aspects from races and make them feats similar to 4e
3. Action Points: have them work like Mutants and Masterminds 2e Hero Points
4. Skills
a. add Complex skill checks (Unearthed Arcana)
5. Combat
a. replace most combat feats with a Book of Iron Might (Malhavoc) maneuver system. Combat feats could reduce penalties instead
b. Negative Hit Points: replace negative hit points with Death and Dying rules (Unearthed Arcana)
c. Crit Confirmation: build crit confirmation into the attack roll: Replace the crit confirmation rules with requiring the attack to fall into the threat range and hit by five or more.
d. add a Star Wars condition track
e. Grappling: Look at Hero System for resolution and for the types of things that c
6. Saving Throws:
- a single progression for all saves similar to how 4e Defenses progress
- classes provide a one time bonus to starting characters(no class bonus from multiclassing). After first level, permanent saving throw bonuses are only gained by taking the appropriate feat.
7. Martial Arts: as per Blood and Fists (RPGObjects)
8. Fx
a. replace Magic fx with Elements of Magic: Mythic Earth (EN Publishing)
b. replace Mental powers with Green Ronin's Psychic's Handbook
9. Magic Item creation: Artificer's Handbook (Mystic Eye Games)
10. add the Incantation rules from Unearthed Arcana
11. DM advice
a. Your players are not entitled to know how the NPC or monster was built
so you don't have to build monsters and no ally/follower NPCs as PCs.
b. Just give monsters and nps what you think they need and don't worry about accounting for every skill point- if it is close enough that is good. For all the players know, the monster could have a class, template, or be a variant creature.
c. When it comes to supplements allow only what you feel comfortable with and able to handle.
1.
a. ditch both Level drain and XP costs for casting spells and magic item creation.
b. Buff/Debuffs and Fatigue Exhaustion. Instead of modifying the ability score just give a straight modifier to rolls, temp hit points (for con) etc. For example, if the bonus was +2 Dex, it becomes +1 to all Dex based rolls and Reflex saves
2. Race
a. add DND races, but the non-biological aspects from races and make them feats similar to 4e
3. Action Points: have them work like Mutants and Masterminds 2e Hero Points
4. Skills
a. add Complex skill checks (Unearthed Arcana)
5. Combat
a. replace most combat feats with a Book of Iron Might (Malhavoc) maneuver system. Combat feats could reduce penalties instead
b. Negative Hit Points: replace negative hit points with Death and Dying rules (Unearthed Arcana)
c. Crit Confirmation: build crit confirmation into the attack roll: Replace the crit confirmation rules with requiring the attack to fall into the threat range and hit by five or more.
d. add a Star Wars condition track
e. Grappling: Look at Hero System for resolution and for the types of things that c
6. Saving Throws:
- a single progression for all saves similar to how 4e Defenses progress
- classes provide a one time bonus to starting characters(no class bonus from multiclassing). After first level, permanent saving throw bonuses are only gained by taking the appropriate feat.
7. Martial Arts: as per Blood and Fists (RPGObjects)
8. Fx
a. replace Magic fx with Elements of Magic: Mythic Earth (EN Publishing)
b. replace Mental powers with Green Ronin's Psychic's Handbook
9. Magic Item creation: Artificer's Handbook (Mystic Eye Games)
10. add the Incantation rules from Unearthed Arcana
11. DM advice
a. Your players are not entitled to know how the NPC or monster was built
so you don't have to build monsters and no ally/follower NPCs as PCs.
b. Just give monsters and nps what you think they need and don't worry about accounting for every skill point- if it is close enough that is good. For all the players know, the monster could have a class, template, or be a variant creature.
c. When it comes to supplements allow only what you feel comfortable with and able to handle.
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