D&D 4E How could 4E be more elegant?

[mmadsen]

I would like to see the skills system swallow combat and a few of the class abilities. Why not do Wild Empathy, Bardic Knowledge and Base Attack Bonus as skills?

Wild Empathy could certainly just be the Handle Animal skill. I never understood why Bardic Knowledge was a separate ability. Why isn't it Knowledge (Legends & Lore)? I'd break Base Attack Bonus into two skills: Melee Combat and Ranged Combat.

 

[Ron]

I would like to see the skill system redone from the scracth. The old AD&D skill system lacked granularity and it was a mechanic in its own. However, considering that 1st edition AD&D was very close to its wargamming roots, it was serviceable. The current edition introduced a much more complex skill system that, althought it complains to the general d20 mechanic, it is too clumsy to my taste. The great advantage of playing a class/level game is the quick creation of PCs and NPCs. OD&D and AD&D were great in this aspect, but d20 is not, mainly because of the complicated skill system. There are too many skills (many good sugestion to lump a few of them were posted in this thread), there is synergy among them and they are not very functional. See how disparate are some of the DCs. Does anybody agree with the DMG about how hard should be open a medieval lock? Worse, they don't scalete well in higher levels.

I would try using a smaller sets of skills, which limited ranks available. Pramas designed the 2nd edition of Warhammer Fantasy Roleplaying to accomodate three levels. I would have more, perhaps ten. This, of course, would require to change the amount of skill points available at each level. But it wouldn't be hard to implement.

 

[woodelf]

Do away with base save bonuses, and replace them with ability checks. You can streamline a fair amount this way. For instance, initiative checks are the same as dex checks are the same as dex saves. You resist tripping by making a dex or strength save.

That's certainly an elegant change...except all the other changes needed to accomodate it might be a problem. Frex, if tripping remains an attack roll, it'll rapidly become impossible to resist it. And if tripping is something else, then you've got two different attacks that use different mechanics. And so on. The upside of saves is they provide resistance rolls that scale at the same rate as everything else, while abilities don't scale perceptably. Though, of course, that could be changed, too.

Take the "spell level" out of spell DC = 10 + spell level + stat bonus.

I've always thought caster level should figure into that somewhere, rather than spell level. Half caster level would (1) scale at about the same rate as the current DCs and (2) match most other class abilities that have saves to avoid them. It just seems to me that a 1st-level spell from an archmage should be harder to resist than one from an apprentice. I suspect that a 9th level spell should *also* be harder to resist than a 1st-level spell, but it starts to get tricky--either the math gets wonky, or the DCs become too big. You'd really need something like how old magic resistance worked, with an assumed baseline of 10th-level caster, or something, and scale it for both caster level and spell level.

 

[woodelf]

Wild Empathy could certainly just be the Handle Animal skill. I never understood why Bardic Knowledge was a separate ability. Why isn't it Knowledge (Legends & Lore)?

Same reason trapfinding, backstabbing, turning undead, and tracking are all separate from skills, to one degree or another: to make the ability exclusive to a particular class.

 

[reanjr]

you could always combine the idea of exhaustion with mana points:

Mana bascially represents energy you have to spare for spellcasting. After you run out of mana, you can push yourself and use the remainder of your energy which comes out of hitpoints, strength, or constitution.

Just thought of this, and figured I'd share:

MP system. You have a total MP which depletes. Once you're out, you are fatigued, but the MP replenishes. Once it runs out again, you're exhausted, but the MP fills up again.

While Fatigued, each spell costs +1 MP; while exhausted each spell costs +2 MP. I would personally like some randomness to it as well, so a spell might cost:

1d4 + lvl*2 + fatigue/exhaustion modifier

That way you never know exactly when you are going to run out.

If you cast beyond your Exhaustion points, you can make a Fort save (DC how many points you have spent since done with exhausted) or die.

It's still something to keep track of, though. I'd prefer a system that didn't have points at all, fo even greater simplicity.

The one I use has a save rolled every time a spell is cast, and every time you fail the save the DC goes up. At a certain point, you can die. But in this one, you still must keep track of the current penalty (though it's not as much to keep track of), and you must roll a save every spell cast, which is a bit of a pain.

 

[RangerWickett]

Skills. Thirteen skills. All of the skills will have meaningful uses in a game, so with a good Craft check you can create a weapon, a trap, etc.

Acrobatics
Arcane Lore
Craft
Disable
Handle Animal
Heal
Influence
Legend Lore
Merchantry
Monster Lore
Nature Lore
Sneak
Spot


Combat and Magic. Combat and magic could also be skill-based. However, there needs to be a balance that makes it just as viable to put skill points in Craft or Heal as it would be to put skill points in Melee Combat or Attack spells.

One option would be to tie magic into the same skills that cover mundane actions. Magical healing would be available to anyone with spellcaster levels, and your healing powers would depend on your Heal skill.

Acrobatics = Movement spells
Arcane Lore = Metamagic and counterspells
Craft = Creation spells
Disable = ?
Handle Animal = Summon spells?
Heal = Healing spells
Influence = Charm and Compel spells
Legend Lore = Divination?
Merchantry = ?
Monster Lore = Summon spells?
Nature Lore = ?
Sneak = Illusions
Spot = Divination?

 

[reanjr]

Since HP is already an abstraction in the extreme, I say make it even more abstract and start using it for other things. Fatigue and Exhaustion could both cost HP. Rage might drain an HP per round. You could expend them for great feats of endurance.

As for spell DCs, I think 10 + 1/2 caster level + Mod is the way to go. A 9th level spell shouldn't be hard to resist because it's a 9th level spell, but because it's cast by a 17th level wizard. If you want differences in spell DCs, you can always apply them at the spell level. For spells that are devastating (finger of death), you could give them a -5 DC mod, while spells than never seem to work often enough to be useful or those that should work against all but the most defended of foes, you can grant a +5 DC mod. These should be kept sparingly for simplicity's sake (I think 3e core rules only has 4 such spells).

 

[Akrasia]

Nothing says "elegant" like a diamond ring!

So a diamond ring with every PHB would be a good idea.

Or at least a stylish garnet.

 

[The_Universe]

Most of the changes here are a great deal more drastic than I would want - I do think it would be a good idea to combine a few skills. Hide and Move Silently should become "Sneak" or something similar (as it stands, attempting to be sneaky is twice as difficult as any other skill check, since you have to succeed on 2 different rolls to remain unpercieved). On that same note, Spot and Listen should become "Perception," or something to that effect.

I would not be opposed to collapsing balance and tumble into the same skill....I am sure that there others, but those are the ones that come to mind.

 

[glass]

No standard, move or full-round actions. Just actions. You get two of them each turn, and can do whatever you like with them. You can use them both to attack, use them both to sling spells, use them both to move, or any combination of the above. You can even hold one or both to use as a reaction, a system which replaces attacks of opportunity.

I agree something could usefully be done about the number of attacks high level character can get each round and I like this in principle, but how do creatures with natural weapons figure into this? Does a dragon with 2 claws, two wings a bite and a tail get two attacks per round or 12?

No 3-18 ability scores. Just an ability modifier, which in point-buy starts at -1 and scales between -4 and +4 for humans (somewhat akin to the SilCore setup). I'm not sure how to handle the roll xd6, drop lowest stat generation method using this system, though.

Would it not be a little odd if ability damage/drain incapacitated or killed you at -5 or -6? Why not say ability score is 1-9 for normals and add 5 to DCs?


glass.