D&D 4E How could 4E be more elegant?

[The Shaman]

YOU ARE OBVIOUSLY VERY SMART AND HAVE EXCELLENT TASTE!!!

Are these special abilities of the Effete class, perhaps?

 

[reanjr]

I'm not really sold on the spellpoints idea. Many seem to like the concept, but I'd like to try a skill-based magic system, similar to Blue Rose.

Come to think of it, I'm annoyed by any power or ability that you can only activate "x times per day". Its a lousy way to balance things. Not to mention the fact that I always find it difficult trying to decide if 8 hours of game time has passed so that the party can rest and replenish their "ammo".

I agree, times per day adds just one more thing you have to keep track of all the time. It's kind of difficult to come up with a system that could replace the power of D&D's spell system and still remove the times per day paradigm.

 

[reanjr]

The funny thing about this thread is that it is suppposed to be about how 4E can be elegant and streamlined. How do you know what changes are more elegant and streamlined? To me, the question to ask is, would such-and-so change make the game easier or harder for casual or first-time players? Most of the changes you guys want would raise that bar significantly. Realize that 3E is the first roleplaying game since cowboys & indians that people can play without knowing the rules. I think we need to keep it that way.

I disagree to a certain extent. Having a layered approach to rules, where one can learn little by little, allows a game to handle complex situations while presenting a friendly interface to newbies. One way of doing this is to have a drill-down approach to the rules where you only have to learn the basics of the rules to begin using a subsystem, but you can add on complexity or ignore it on a case-by-case basis.

An example might be melee attacks. Rather than having a series of feats that apply to weapons and their use (weapon finesse, weapon focus, weapon specialization), you can have an Attack Bonus that can be used for all melee weapons. You never need worry that there is any more to the system than a simple +5 to hit and 1d8 damage. But if you want to be a master swordsman, you can improve that modifier, getting a +3 to use swords, or a +8 total with your +5 to all attacks. Then you can come along and get really good at the rapier, getting a +2 to add to your +8 with swords.

You can apply this sort of ideology to the entire game. If your character doesn't want to deal with the skill system, then don't. All skills are purchased the same, and all can be used untrained. While the DM might ask one player to make a Spot check, he can ask you to make a Wisdom check. You need never know what skills or skill points are. Instead of getting skill points, you got that extra boost to your rapier attack, something you care about, as opposed to trying to figure out which of the 40 skills to place your measly 2 skill points into; and since you never cared about skills, you're not even sure where to begin.

With spellcasters, maybe you think of a wizard as a spell slinging powerhouse of massive damage. You don't really care about the intricacies of a polymorph spell and so you only learn those spells you like (fireball, magic missile, etc.) and get better and better at them, instead of learning them and being done with it, and then diversifying. Later on, when you want to expand your horizons a bit, the rules are there, but you were able to ignore them up until you cared.

Unfortunately, this can't be done with a class level system, so you do have the initial investment of character creation. But a slew of packages to choose from (the spellslinger, the enchanter, the necromancer, the diviner, etc.) can get you started real quick without even worrying about all those other rules.

You chose a spellcaster and you look at your starting package. Attack Bonus is nowhere to be found. It isn't needed. You aren't planning on using it. And you don't even really know what it is or how it works (and that you can specialize in swords and rapiers, etc.) But that's OK. After a few sessions, when your character picked up a knife and did horribly trying to wield it with his untrained Str mod, you may decide you'd like to at least look into this Attack Bonus thing that you see the grunts in the party using. You only need to get as involved as you wish, though. You need not learn the rules for tripping, disarming, whirlwind attack, etc. and you are not going to be unbalanced because you don't.

 

[mmadsen]

I agree, times per day adds just one more thing you have to keep track of all the time. It's kind of difficult to come up with a system that could replace the power of D&D's spell system and still remove the times per day paradigm.

You could easily replace times-per-day with a "burnout" roll; once you fail, you can't use that power until...whenever.

 

[fusangite]

I would like to see the skills system swallow combat and a few of the class abilities. Why not do Wild Empathy, Bardic Knowledge and Base Attack Bonus as skills? It would also be nice to have properly balanced alternative combat rules for groups that do not wish to use miniatures so that mini use becomes optional. Finally, some kind of massive reform of magic needs to be undertaken; keeping this relic from 1E is no longer necessary to give people that sense of continuity.

 

[Super Girl]

To ditch the the spells/day system, there are a few options:

Magic/Mana Points: Spellcasters get a certain number of magic points a day and can spend them as they wish, with each spell level costing exponentially more then the last, so a character could wing a huge spell and be tired out, or cast a lot of smaller spells.

Exhaustion save: Players can cast unlimited spells, each spell has a specific Exhaustion save listed with it, once the character has cast the spell, he makes an Exhaustion (Fort, Will?) saving throw, if he succeeds, there is no penalty, if he fails by less then 5 he gets -2 to all future saves, if he fails by 10 he is fatigued suffering all the normal penalties of it and is unable to cast any spells until he rests.

 

[apsuman]

I just had a thought...

Some people want caster level "to stack" and some others want to lessen the gap between pure casters and non pure spellcasters.

Here's my idea:

Make "Wizard caster level +1" as a feat. Same with Sorcerer, Cleric, and Druid.

That way you could be a level 3 wizard that has a caster level 6 from feats. The have that many spellslots, and third level spells. Their fireballs do only 3d6. They have no other feats.

This way, for a feat, multicaster characters can close the gap. For that matter, give wizards one extra feat at each level, and take away their natural spell progression. If at character level 12, if the wizard wants to pick up spell penetration, and improved initiative (for example) because he already has a caster level 14 (or 10 for that matter) that's up the the character.


g!

 

[DanMcS]

Do away with base save bonuses, and replace them with ability checks. You can streamline a fair amount this way. For instance, initiative checks are the same as dex checks are the same as dex saves. You resist tripping by making a dex or strength save.

Take the "spell level" out of spell DC = 10 + spell level + stat bonus.

 

[Verequus]

Make "Wizard caster level +1" as a feat. Same with Sorcerer, Cleric, and Druid.

That way you could be a level 3 wizard that has a caster level 6 from feats. The have that many spellslots, and third level spells. Their fireballs do only 3d6. They have no other feats.

This way, for a feat, multicaster characters can close the gap. For that matter, give wizards one extra feat at each level, and take away their natural spell progression. If at character level 12, if the wizard wants to pick up spell penetration, and improved initiative (for example) because he already has a caster level 14 (or 10 for that matter) that's up the the character.

That is far too expensive - you burn every available feat for an increase of a caster level, which is useless at the levels, where the number is considerably improved. Furthermore, one can only spend one third of the levels on class levels with no caster level increase, because you get a feat only every third level.

My opinion about a rules system is, that it should not only allow every possible combination, but should make them inherently as viable as possible. This means, that you don't have to pay extra to become a bit less worse than a comparable "pure" build. I don't share the opinion, that Unearthed Arcana's variant of improving caster levels would be the best. It is too weak - actually, the idea of having the caster level (for spell effects only) equalling the HD is the best, I've seen, but the core magic system doesn't support my actual intention good enough.

If we got to psionics, then the power point limit would be raised with the HD, while the PP-reserve and other manifester-related things would stay the same for a multiclassed caster. The best use of this rule would make Elements of Magic Revised - should the PDF be updated again, then it would include this change. RangerWickett has already adopted this idea.

 

[Kalendraf]

OK. I'll bite...

1. Remove Prestige Classes. Replace them with a much more flexible set of feats w/ appropriate requirements to allow the same unique and tailored abilities to be obtained but without having to make a bunch of PrC's to provide them.

2. Merge Psionics and Magic into one overall magic system. I know some people have strong opinions about keeping psionics different from magic. I think the more flexible points system from the psionics system to invoke powers should be applied toward the magic system. This would allow such things as smaller or bigger blast spells by spending more points as well as a bunch of other nice changes.

3. Rebalance the elemental effects. The Psionics handbook took a stab at this and it seems better, so maybe follow it's methodology. But I think it might be worth considering the Elements of Magic approach and strongly consider adding far more elements to the game along with varying effects that each elemenent is tied to.

4. Clean up the CR-rating method. Under examination and testing, it doesn't take long to find places where the CR-rating simply breaks down and doesn't work for predicting difficulty. I don't know how to fix this, so I can't offer any solid solutions, but this needs to be fixed.

5. Fix the magic crafting cost tables. The chart(s) in the back of the DMG is woefully inadequate at resolving proper costs of items. Again, I can't offer any great solutions here, but this badly needs to be cleaned up.

6. Make nearly all forms of undead into templates. This would allow them to be added to any kind of base creature. So you could then end up with a Mummy Giant, a Ghoul Ogre Mage or a Wight Minotaur.

7. Remove extra attacks per round (except for a few special feats like TWF or RS). Combat gets overly slowed down at higher levels as characters have to roll more and more dice per round of combat. To compensate the removed attacks and keep the game balanced, make those landed attacks deal more damage either with larger dice or larger fixed bonuses. Those boosts would occur each time the character goes up another +5 in their BAB.

8. Keep the current damage reduction system (magic, silver, holy, etc), but change up how stacking works and rebalance the monsters. If a monster has DR 10 / Silver and Holy, change it to be DR 5/Silver and DR 5/Holy and change the rules to make those stack. If a player uses a normal item, it will be DR 10. But if a player has a silver or holy weapon he would then only face DR 5. Currently, that character would face DR 10 which seems overly painful. Rebalance all the monsters DR's to avoid cases like DR 15/magic which seems utterly pathetic (for characters above about 3rd or 4th level) or overly deadly (for any below that level).

9. Balance the core races. Right now Dwarves seem overly strong w/ their bonuses. Not sure the best method to balance them, but it may require adding more benefits to the other races to compensate.

10. Modify the bonuses for various shields and armors. There aren't enough reasons besides flavor to get any armor except the best type of each category (Light = Chain Shirt, Medium = Breast Plate, Heavy = Full Plate) or the shield (small = buckler, large = tower) . Chain mail, scale mail, half-plate and so forth seem so neglected. And I've almost never seen anyone pick a small shield, since the buckler is superior. Time for a rebalance.