How D&D Was Saved and Made It To 4e

[Li Shenron]

(Right about now is the place where I expect somebody to bring up what I call the Straw DM--the hypothetical "good DM" who makes the game fresh and interesting all by him/herself, solves every rules-related issue with a casual yet precisely calibrated judgement call, and carefully attends to the needs of each and every player, each and every game. Not every group has such a paragon, however, and even good DMs have bad days... and anyone can fall into a rut after a while.)

I can bring that up. For me playing a RPG has always been also about coming up with new ideas, including rules. I'm not even such a good DM, just someone who enjoys doing that.

I guess I'm a bad customer for RPG publishers, because most of the times I believe that a RPG just needs the core books. I have amassed something like 20-25 3e books, but I believe I never actually needed to buy them.

What I understand from other gamers I know (including me), is that most of the times they want to buy books because they like shopping, not unlike going to buy a new pair of shoes or a new mobile phone after all.

 

[Carnivorous_Bean]

The RPG market is weird and atypical, IMO. It's probably the only market I can think of where the system is what sells, and not stuff to use with the system.

Campaign settings and modules don't sell. So the companies are obliged to keep churning out more rules, more and more and more rules, until finally the whole thing becomes so labyrinthine and bloated that they have to put out a new edition and start all over again.

It's not really the company's fault -- it's the fact that their customers will basically only buy rules in economically viable quantities.

It's like if people obsessed about buying more and more and more add-ons for a CD player, but never bought any CDs to use in it. Eventually, the player ends up filling a room, and essentially doesn't do anything it didn't already do -- except that now you need to read 50 pages of wiring diagrams to figure out how to turn it on. That's basically what the RPG industry is like.

Actually, I'm astonished that there's any RPG industry left at all -- it's such an inverted and difficult business model.

 

[TerraDave]

Memories...

Lessons for 4E?

Lets look at some 3E problems:

-Software failure: after the belly flop of the etools, Hasbro bought the company, and electronic rights where licensed off (leading Peter A to leave the company). Now, software is at the heart of the new edition. May they get it right.

-Product glut: 3E cut back from 2E, but they still released 160+ products (there is actually a new list in another thread, I will look for the link). They say they are not being as aggressive as they could be for 4E, and will spread products out. But they are releasing 29 products in 08, and seem to be targetting 1 hardback a month plus adventures and accesories. Seems like a lot. Seems like there will be a big falloff in sales after people buy the obvious stuff.

How do they break the cycle? One is to broaden the base of players and maintain sales of core books. The other? software, which allows movement to a subscription based model vs a book based one. Again, it all goes back to software.

-Customer feedback: They are good at acknowleding problems players have had, and are clearly willing to change the game to address those problems. BUT, much of 4E has been developed behind closed doors, the playtest period was limited, and they seem to be falling into old patterns. Note this quote from Ryan Dancy: "we spent too much time on our own worlds, and not enough time on theirs" What do we get for 4E, a whole new default world, plus a rearanging (nuking) of the Realms, and support for Eberron...EDIT: not that there is anything wrong with the later.

But ya, I hope they did learn something.

 

[malraux]

Remember that there are two distinct issues with product glut. First is the issue of releasing too many rule books so that you run into issues with incompatibilities or overpowered combos. (arguably 3e had this, though I think that the case for this is overstated compared with previous editions). The second issue with product glut is over production and specialization such that more money is spent producing each book than is made back via sales. In other words, supply greatly exceeds demand and the company becomes unprofitable. When people speak of product glut and 2e, that's what they mean, not the former issue of rules problems. I don't see much evidence that WotC's RPG business is unprofitable as a whole. The fact that HAS is letting them release another edition instead of shutting it down is a reasonable indicator that the RPG books are profitable. Thus, there was not a product glut for 3e in the way there was for 2e.

 

[BlackMoria]

Comparing the glut of 2e products to the glut of 3e products is comparing apples and oranges.

In the 2e era, there was only a few kids in the sandbox producing product for D&D and the biggest kid (TSR) virtually controlled that sandbox and muddied it up. TSR was their own worst enemy in that regard.

In the 3e era, there is hundreds of companies in the sandbox now. Sure, the sandbox got muddied up but in this case, it wasn't the huge 900 lb gorilla crapping in the sandbox but the sheer number of kids playing in it.

So, for 4e, they build a new sandbox. Fresh sand, eager kids waiting to dive in and have fun. But give it time and 4e's sandbox will become muddied up enough that there will be a 5e sandbox. Sooner or later.

 

[Wepwawet]

Third party glut though, not so much the stuff Wizards produced. And it alone didn't kill 3e. Nothing has killed it as long as people have the books and play it.

Before coming to this boards I didn't know of any third party D&D publisher, and already I couldn't stand any more endless feat and spell lists from WotC books...

Usually the main problem was that the new stuff invalidated the core stuff, making it a bit underpowered. That way it was impossible to play a core-books-only campaing.
I hope 4E will keep balance along all the splatbooks.

 

[Cyronax]

Before coming to this boards I didn't know of any third party D&D publisher, and already I couldn't stand any more endless feat and spell lists from WotC books...

Usually the main problem was that the new stuff invalidated the core stuff, making it a bit underpowered. That way it was impossible to play a core-books-only campaing.
I hope 4E will keep balance along all the splatbooks.

Funny .... that's had been my hope for 3E. I had high hopes for 3e in that respect, but my confidence was quickly shaken by many of the poorly edited 3.0 products (Sword & Fist and the Psionic Book).

3.5 and its immediate splatbooks were great, and I hope they focus on that level of quality and not let things like Book of the Nine Swords (a powerful tack on system that invalidates most of the martial 3.5 core classes) too often. Ditto on reserve feats and skill tricks.

Looking over some of the most recent 3.5 books, I half-way feel like its the Rifts product line.

C.I.D.

 

[malraux]

3.5 and its immediate splatbooks were great, and I hope they focus on that level of quality and not let things like Book of the Nine Swords (a powerful tack on system that invalidates most of the martial 3.5 core classes) too often. Ditto on reserve feats and skill tricks.

Aside from the beta test for 4e nature of 9 swords, my impression of it was that it only replaced the core melee classes for those classes that just weren't very balanced to begin with. It only invalidated core to the extent that core was poorly made.

 

[CleverNickName]

Not Dead Yet

I would like to invite anyone who thinks that 3.5 Edition D&D has been "killed," to log onto my Fantasy Grounds server (or stop by my house) on the first and third Saturday nights of each month. You will find a 3.5E campaign that is very much alive and well, being played by 100% satisfied customers.

There is no product glut at our table (virtual or otherwise), because we aren't compelled to buy everything ever published with a D20 logo on it. "Everything but the kitchen sink" is great when you are cooking up a pot of jambalaya, but not when you are playing a game.

 

[Celebrim]

Memories...

Lessons for 4E?

Lets look at some 3E problems:

-Software failure: after the belly flop of the etools, Hasbro bought the company, and electronic rights where licensed off (leading Peter A to leave the company). Now, software is at the heart of the new edition. May they get it right.

-Product glut: 3E cut back from 2E, but they still released 160+ products (there is actually a new list in another thread, I will look for the link). They say they are not being as aggressive as they could be for 4E, and will spread products out. But they are releasing 29 products in 08, and seem to be targetting 1 hardback a month plus adventures and accesories. Seems like a lot. Seems like there will be a big falloff in sales after people buy the obvious stuff.

How do they break the cycle? One is to broaden the base of players and maintain sales of core books. The other? software, which allows movement to a subscription based model vs a book based one. Again, it all goes back to software.

-Customer feedback: They are good at acknowleding problems players have had, and are clearly willing to change the game to address those problems. BUT, much of 4E has been developed behind closed doors, the playtest period was limited, and they seem to be falling into old patterns. Note this quote from Ryan Dancy: "we spent too much time on our own worlds, and not enough time on theirs" What do we get for 4E, a whole new default world, plus a rearanging (nuking) of the Realms, and support for Eberron...EDIT: not that there is anything wrong with the later.

But ya, I hope they did learn something.

QFT.