How did guns change medieval societies?

jasper said:
For the most part, it sounds like guns really changed things because of the impact they had on armies, not on heroes:
1) They were cheaper to make than longbows Um no no no no no no. You still need a gun smith to create forge, file, etc eact one especially once you move pass the hollow iron bar with a touch hole stage.
2) Any peasant could be conscripted, handed a rifle, and sent to war
True but they never were. The royal bought, hired, trained musketters.
3) Armies could carry more ammo, and thus outlast their bow-wielding enemies neither which takes up more 1 pd of powder which may seperate while on the wagon or a bundle of arrows. I will give maybe a quarter space saved to gunpowder.
The issue isn't the gun, which is indeed expensive, skilled dependent, and heavy, but its comparative advantage to the bow.

1.) A good bow, either a long bow or composite, is incredibly expensive and time consuming to make. Steppe style composite have been estimated to take nearly three years worth of man labour. A guns not cheap, but it's going to be comparitively easier to manufacture than that.

2.) Armies are indeed primarilly hired. But hiring and training musketeers is something you can do pretty much anywhere, archers come from cultures not training camps.

3.) The individual soldier can indeed carry more gun ammo than an archer can. Arrows are delicate and awkward, ball and powder is comparatively less so. Further, bullets and gun powder are a somewhat less complicated supply issue than well crafted arrow heads, shafts, glue, and fletching. Further still, you can starve a musketeer and you don't loose nearly the functionality you do when you starve a longbowmen.

In terms of the gun versus everything else on the field, well there's centuries before it becomes entirely dominant. Even after the medieval period and the military revolution there are still a lot of archers on the battlefield let alone melee specialists.

I'm certainly not arguing that there wasn't some contention between the two, just that the gun did have strong comparative advantages in terms of what sort of army you were going to buy and field.
 

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In terms of wounding:

The concussive damage caused by a musket, or sling bullet for that matter, is nasty, but a ball is comparatively simple to pull out. Any bolt or arrow is going to twist into a wound and make things difficult.

Aside from the increase of numbers on the battlefield post military revolution what do we know about changes in the real lethality of combat. My understanding was that things didn't begin to approach truly high lethality levels until the civil war. Surely the damage for more primitive firearms is over-emphasized, in terms of DnD levels of damage, at anything beyond 2d6 for a close shot with a deadly gun?

I mean if a two handed great sword is only going to go up to twelve plus strength surely a musket isn't going to get much deadlier?
 

Dr. Strangemonkey said:
In terms of wounding:

The concussive damage caused by a musket, or sling bullet for that matter, is nasty, but a ball is comparatively simple to pull out. Any bolt or arrow is going to twist into a wound and make things difficult.

Aside from the increase of numbers on the battlefield post military revolution what do we know about changes in the real lethality of combat. My understanding was that things didn't begin to approach truly high lethality levels until the civil war. Surely the damage for more primitive firearms is over-emphasized, in terms of DnD levels of damage, at anything beyond 2d6 for a close shot with a deadly gun?

I mean if a two handed great sword is only going to go up to twelve plus strength surely a musket isn't going to get much deadlier?

However the arrows and bolts that were best at penetrating armor were also the worst at creating serious wounds and vice versa. (Bodkin point vs. broad tip.)

You are correct in regards to the lethality of ACW weapons, due largely to improved accuracy as rifled barrels become more common. I agree in regards to damage - swords, pikes, and even knives were in general more lethal than the gun. Bleeding out and shock being the killeres there. Both were lethal if the penetrated the gut, causing a slow, painful death from peritonitis. The bulk of fatalities happening several days after the battle, as disease and infection takes its toll.

The Auld Grump
 


Mini Rant on Jared Diamond

Dr. Strangemonkey said:
2.) Armies are indeed primarilly hired. But hiring and training musketeers is something you can do pretty much anywhere, archers come from cultures not training camps.

This was not the effect of gunpowder. Armies were primarily hired in the early Renaissance period because of the City states in Italy and the lack of a centralized state in the rest of Europe. In fact, it was because of gunpowder that these sorts of forces ultimately became extinct.

You are referring to the Renaissance mercenary armies as your example (the mercenaries of the De Medicis et al..) But Venetian and Florentine mercenary armies were primarily crossbow users - not gunpowder forces. Firearms were still very expensive to deploy in numbers at this time and they were still unreliable and had a poor rate of fire.

It took central governments to exploit gunpowder to its fullest. Gunpowder and a strong central state fed on one another and reinforced one another. Jared Diamond might believe that gunpowder had little to do with it - but I am not buying into that view.

It leads to the early modern period, nationalism and plentiful black powder weaponry on the fields of Europe. It lead to revolution and the guillotine. It leads to a change in the way in which states were governed. It's not incidental; it's not a throw away development in history with no lasting change.

The historiography of Diamond that people are quoting in this thread is extremely fatalistic and determinative. It has a philosophy of historical interpretation which intrinsically never admits that things could really have gone any other way than they did; that all change is social and military matters effect little in the way of typical life and societal change. That the military is only effected by and does not cause economic change. It's all geography and biology.

(Paul Kennedy will show you a very different explanation if you read him - but he's currently out of favour in a country where major war and tax cuts are uttered in the same breath)

There are a lot of historians who agree with this sort of broad brushed analysis - and while it is often true - it ignore pivotal events where it is demonstrably NOT true.

Consequently, it can be naive and dangerous. It suggests that wars are always won before they are begun and that generational patterns of migration, disease and geography are ultimately determinative.

It's a psychohistory approach which ignores The Mule. A study of the Pacific War that ignores Midway; that Austerlitz - or Waterloo - were won by plows and shopkeepers and that neither victory had long term consequences. It's not quite revisionism a la Charles and Mary Beard saying the American Civil War was economics and not slavery - but it often comes close. It focuses to the macro scale that finds its theory convenient - by steadfastly refusing to look deeper and measure individual cause and effect.

I accordingly approach such historiography with suspicion. I did my thesis on the topic of the Grand Theorists (which at the time were Paul Kennedy and William McNeill). Jared Diamond (Guns, Germs and Steel) has ripped off just enough of McNeill's Plagues and Peoples and tried to bend it away from Kennedy's more militaristic view. He may be selling - but on the whole - I'm not buying.

So: while Diamond may chalk it all up to germs and bubonic plague and geography - I think history, technology, the military and the individual go deeper than that. They matter.

And when you have a weapon that renders a decade of hacking at the pells to be more or less wasted time - you have a serious and profound effect on your society measurable over as long a period of time as it takes to perfect the weapon and deploy them in numbers. In our history - that took centuries. That does not mean that it needed to take that long - only that it did take that long.
 
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Patryn of Elvenshae said:
Duh ... Hollow-point vs. AP ... :D

Heh, considering some of the posts in this thread alone I consider nothing too obvious to mention...

For that matter I have seen TV shows that seem to think that AP rounds do more damage than hollowpoint... along with revolvers bearing silencers...

The Auld Grump, personally I like safety rounds...
 

I don't think that changes in society could be directly linked ANY single cause; they always have several ones. Saying that "it was all due to gownpowder" is the same as saying "it was all due to the Black Death". Both were important, though gunpowder had a greater impact on society than the Black Death.

To pick an example relevant to this thread, you can't fire a gun just by having only the gunpowder, the bullet, the trigger, the firing tubes or the gun-man. You need all of them: the gun-man to point the gun at a target, stabilize it, load it and pull the trigger; you need the gunpowder to propel the bullet, which, in turn, is needed in order to impact a target; you need a tube to contain the powder's explosive force and to direct it to propel the bullet in the right direction; and you need the trigger to ignite the gunpowder.

The development of cities, trade, trade and production slowly eroded the socio-economical basis of feudalism and gradually concentrated power in the hands of townsmen (mostly merchants and the artisan precursors of industrialists); it also made the monrach less and less dependant on nobility and more and more dependant on moneylenders, merchants and mercenaries. It did not destroy feudalism overnight; in fact, the last remanants of feudalism lived up to the early 20th century (such as in Tsarist Russia, which was semi-feudal up to the 1917 Revolution, even though serfdom was officially abolished in the 1850's IIRC).

Guns made (after some time) the noble knight, with his castle, steed, expensive armor and extensive training, quite useless in the battlefield. It made the monarch far less dependant on the aristocracy in military matters and far more dependant on the moneylenders and the merchants. This made absolute monarchy possible and, in turn, strengthened and enriched the townsmen.

There were, ofcourse, other inventions which had great effect on the late medieval and the early post-medieval society, and most of them had something to do with shipbuilding and navigation. In addition to the boost they gave to trade between the European kingdoms, they also made the exploration and exploitation of other continents possible and profitable. Not only were these new ships armed with cannons (giving more profits to the cannon-makers and giving a push to the metal industry in general), but gunpowder gave the European conquerors a distinct advantage over native armies. This made the merchants even wealthier as they had new markets, new workforces and lots of resources and riches to plunder and sell.

The Black Death accelerated this process by concentrating the same amount of wealth (land, instruments, money etc) in the hands of two thirds of the population (those who stayed alive), and thus giving a push to trade and to the standard of living.

Eventually, all these changes brought the total collapse of feudalism and the rise of absolute (or constitutional, in other countries) monarchy, massive changes to religion (and the general weakening of the church), scientific progress and, eventually, the industrial and democratic revolutions.
 

Having skimmed through the previous threads

I think a lot of the main points have been made:

-cannons eventually changed the relationship between the sovern and his lords

-guns where not great weapons, but they where easier to use and could be effective when massed

-firearms where more effective against armored opponents--on average

-the overall effect was to encourage greater central control over larger armed forces

-another effect was to change the role of "skill" on the battlefield: individual martial skills declined in importance, the ability to lead others (as there were more to lead) became more so.

It is worth clarifying the following:

It would take about 300 years for firearms to become the dominant battlefield weapon. During that time you have a real mix of forces. And things like lances and swords would still be used on the field for many decades after.

Also worth noting:
Firearms would become the basis of a number of large empires (based in the east as well as the west), and play a role in the first era of "globalisation". They weren't the only factor, but they were a factor.
 

I'd recommend making guns have a worse range modifier, than normal ranged weapons. Early guns were notoriously inaccurate, so while they may do more damage, they don't hit more often than arrows. This would help balance things out, as well.

Also, rather than have a really high damage like 4d6, consider 1d20, 19-20, x4. This is more in keeping with other D&D weapons and still conveys a deadly weapon. It also ensures that high level PCs can live from a bullet wound (representing a grazing shot to the arm).

As for making mages out of work, le'see here:
enchanted gun industry is likely to do well, Pistol +1?
barrels of endless gunpowder (gunpowder isn't any harder to make than beer or wine, and there's endless barrels of those)
barrels of endless saltpeter, charcoal and sulfur (for those that want to quibble over endless gunpowder, just tap into the plane of saltpeter, charcoal and sulfur).
Kinetic Shield spells that deflect high kinetic objects
Detect Gunpowder spells
Wet Powder spells (for disrupting people or armies)
All the non-combat spells are going to be as valuable as before, so no loss there
 

Janx said:
I'd recommend making guns have a worse range modifier, than normal ranged weapons. Early guns were notoriously inaccurate, so while they may do more damage, they don't hit more often than arrows. This would help balance things out, as well.

Also, rather than have a really high damage like 4d6, consider 1d20, 19-20, x4. This is more in keeping with other D&D weapons and still conveys a deadly weapon. It also ensures that high level PCs can live from a bullet wound (representing a grazing shot to the arm).

As for making mages out of work, le'see here:
enchanted gun industry is likely to do well, Pistol +1?
barrels of endless gunpowder (gunpowder isn't any harder to make than beer or wine, and there's endless barrels of those)
barrels of endless saltpeter, charcoal and sulfur (for those that want to quibble over endless gunpowder, just tap into the plane of saltpeter, charcoal and sulfur).
Kinetic Shield spells that deflect high kinetic objects
Detect Gunpowder spells
Wet Powder spells (for disrupting people or armies)
All the non-combat spells are going to be as valuable as before, so no loss there

Think of the effects of a fireball spell dropped on a cannon crew, igniting their supply of gunpowder.
 

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