D&D (2024) How did I miss this about the Half races/ancestries

[AnotherGuy]

Note, a Human-Dragon is possible from a Human who grows up within the magical influence of a nearby powerful Dragon.

I like this origin idea. The pervasiveness of the magical influence that Dragons have in the natural area extends beyond the environment (Regional Effects), but to biological creatures too.

Very cool.

EDIT: Hence Kobolds (not the dog-like looking ones). And I'd imagine twisted souls seek out these mutations for their own personal power.

 

[AnotherGuy]

Eliminating potential storylines... for something you spent years never even bothering to read? "Wait wait, I never cared about this at all for years, but now that you want to change it because you read it and have been thinking about it for multiple years, I think we should keep it the same, after all, it could be interesting."

I don't think your ignorance of the write-ups while others were actually reading them really stack up with equal weight.

Yes, it does help my case. You spent a decade not caring at all about this lore, not interacting with it in anyway, Did you find the game boring? Flavorless? Did you find your enjoyment of DnD somehow existentially lesser? You basically just grabbed something called an orc, threw it on the map, and didn't care beyond that. And frankly, if that's all you need, no matter what we do to the lore, you'll be able to do the exact same thing.

The problem is not that I never got around to utilising it, it is that you are proposing we replace it with less than what we currently have. And you are determined to remove a story tool because somehow it is abhorrent in D&D but that story tool is acceptable in other forms of media and entertainment.

So the only possible conflict in the world is racism? You are correct, I don't believe you. Mostly because I can think of little things like war, conflict over resources, dealing with tyrannical leaders, greed, succession crisises, natural disasters, dark magic rituals, cults,... A lot of things really other than racism. I mean, political intrigue like Game of Thrones seems to not need any racism at all.
I'm really sad that you've expeirenced so little good writing that the only type of conflict you think is possible is racism.

The only conflict in the world is not racism and to be factually correct, I also included personal conflict and script change.
Within the current orc/half-orc racial write-up the conflict is naked there, waiting to be used and it is inherent.
The other conflicts you speak of are besides the inherent nature. Everyone experiences greed, natural disasters, tyrannical leaders, conflict over resources...etc.
How is the orc anyway different to a human, dwarf, elf, goblin...with the things you mentioned for conflict?
Where is the diversity?

Most of the rest of your post I have not included as my above paragraph covers it.

And that's without getting into the double standards when you stop and look at halflings, elves, humans, ect.

Point to me the problematic elements in the other races and I will take a look. Everything can always be improved upon, I'm just not in favour of replacing things with less.

 

[AnotherGuy]

Are you saying you can only have conflict if you have bigotry?

No. I'm not saying that. I'm saying the racial write-up provides conflicts right out the door. There is nothing unique about fighting over lands. Any people, even the same type of people have those conflicts.
The elven/orc relationship is unique because it stems back to the history between their creators, and now their children are wrapped up in it. Then orcs themselves are tainted with the Mark of Gruumsh which itself is a curse and a blessing.

It is also pretty cool that these two races that are so divided by hate, are the only ones that have the halfs (half-orc, half-elf) - none of the others. This brings the humans into the conflict and could spell more story-lines between a half-orc and a half-elf.

That you couldn't have this one group of orcs and this one group of elves hate each other because of this chunk of land they've been warring over, because this conflict only involves these two groups and not having every elf and every orc hate each other for meta-reasons?

I'm a huge fan of flipped script. What if there was a tribe of orcs that had indeed made peace with an elven clan.
How did that happen?
Someone or something tampered with the orcs' Mark of Gruumsh? Was this purposeful or inadvertent?
Common enemy forced an alliance which somehow became permanent? Marriage? Polymorph curse? Wise elders amongst the two groups? ...etc
That is an awesome thing, to have your players discover.

 

[AnotherGuy]

A lot of this is especially weird given that LotR had so many examples of how racism is stupid and makes everything worse and the good people recognizing this saves the world.

A lot of this is especially weird given that LotR had so many examples of how greed is stupid and makes everything worse and the good people recognizing this, save the world.

 

[Guest 85555]

It is interesting to note that back when Bedrock WOULD give examples, they were mostly abstract art or movies from the 80's (which did get made and distributed). Never did get an example of a non-WoTC idea that was shot down in the past ten years when supposedly this all got worse.

Chaosmancer, I explained clearly why on this front and there are basically two very good reasons and a third less good reason: 1) its s obvious and something people know about if they have spent any time in gaming spaces 2) the only way to do this is bring in specific examples from real companies and designers who have already been dragged through the mud 3) my point wasn't limited to people being dragged through the mud for making content that people object to on the grounds we've been talking about here (though that sort of thing certainly happens) but more broadly about how this is intersecting with a culture of increased ostracism and attack on social media in the hobby. I even alluded to my own personal experience with it, which very nearly resulted in me hanging myself. Now this is also something of a side issue from the main topic. So i was content if people didn't think 1 was as obvious as I thought, or if they weren't satisfied with 2, because the focus of discussion was a much more specific issue. I think plenty of people in this thread understand the kinds of incidents I am referring to and also can sense that they have become more prevalent, intense and cruel. If you don't agree, that is fair. But I have given my reasons for not wanting to list off specific examples of this happening in the hobby.

 

[Guest 85555]

Weird, I never mentioned Shrek at all.

I know you didn't. I was just making the point that I am not against movies that want to explore flipping and deconstructing tropes like the damsel in distress (which is what you mentioned) or the evil ogre (orc). I like that kind of thing in movies when it is done well. But making it the only thing we do, also gets dull. Sometimes you need evil ogres, sometimes it is okay for a woman character to be vulnerable or even rescued. It just all depends on what the work is trying to do and the needs of the story.

 

[Guest 85555]

So the only possible conflict in the world is racism? You are correct, I don't believe you. Mostly because I can think of little things like war, conflict over resources, dealing with tyrannical leaders, greed, succession crisises, natural disasters, dark magic rituals, cults,... A lot of things really other than racism. I mean, political intrigue like Game of Thrones seems to not need any racism at all.

I know this was directed at another poster, but to be clear, I don't think most people are making this argument. I certainly am not. If the whole game was just about racial animosity that wouldn't be particularly great in my opinion. It should just be one type of conflict that exists among many types of conflict.

Game of thrones is a good example though because that is a hard type of campaign for many to pull off. I am fine with it. I can easily see a long term campaign structured that way. But I also get that lots of people just want to make a map, populate it with orc tribes and dungeons and let the players at it. Or that some people enjoy the ribbing between the elf and dwarf character, or like the idea of half elves occupying this space of being caught between two worlds (which honestly I think is a lot more about culture than race-----the people I have known who have had this experience, it has usually been more around culture than skin tone).

Also since we are talking about game of thrones. It may not have had a reliance on racism as a source of conflict (I haven't read the books though and my understanding is the show got something crucial wrong about slavery that gave the wrong impression about it possibly being racial). But for the sake of argument, let's say it has nothing racial in it at all. It still has a lot of stuff people in this thread would likely object to being in a roleplaying game. It is almost the big example that used to come up in problematic trope discussions. I don't even object to that stuff being in a movie, show or book (and I think Martin seems like a pretty empathetic and broad minded person from what I have seen of him in interviews), but even I had several "I think this show is a bit too dark for me" moments, where I wasn't sure I wanted to continue watching after certain things happened (again not saying they were wrong to do those things, but definitely GoT is not an example of avoiding the kinds of things we are talking about)

 

[Chaosmancer]

What if they kept the half-elf and half-orc entries and rules, but removed the bigotry language? Would that be ok?

Sure, I'd be fine with it. I'd be disappointed if in the return to bringing those mechanical options back, we reverted the chance for the myriad of new choices that we now have, because I like the openness of being able to have yuan-ti Aarcrocka mixes, or Genasi Tiefling human mixes, or any of a dozen other options.

 

[Chaosmancer]

We have backgrounds now if people are desperate to make "had to deal with bigotry" a major part of their character.

Yeah, I thought about this a few times. We had backgrounds like "the cursed one" or whatever it was that were basically "something dark and terrible happened to you". It wouldn't be hard to have a background that was like "outcast: For reasons that can range from crimes, bigotry or superstition, you were forced to live outside of the mainstream society" or something to that effect. It could cover victims of racism, people who committed taboos and were banished, people marked by strange symbols, sorcerers. Lots of options for something like that.

 

[Chaosmancer]

Really, shouldn’t that at the very least be a flaw? I’d probably prefer it to be something you are rather than something you are subjected to.

Hey, here’s these game perks for being the victim of racism and bigotry is not really something I want in the game.

Fair, but I think making it a more generic template, then letting the player fill in the details would be fine. It would be entirely the player's choice to lean into that role then.