How "different" does a new setting have to be?

[Glyfair]

I keep seeing this over & over.

"This setting isn't wildly different enough for me."

"I can get the same thing from Greyhawk & Forgotten Realms."

"It didn't go far enough in my opinion."

These paraphrased comments have all been about new campaign settings. How different do you need a new setting to be?

I keep looking at all the suggestions for how to make settings wildly different and all I see are settings that will come out, create a small fan base and die out because of lack of support. Maybe it will stay around for a while, or jump from publisher to publisher if its of good quality and creates a fanatical fan base, but always be in danger of cancellation.

When I sit down to play an RPG, I do want something somewhat different. At the same time, I need familiar elements to relate to. I don't want to have to study a cultural handbook to be able to properly roleplay my character. I want the everyday abberations of a campaign to be limited to something I can assimilate within the first 1/2 hour of a game session, with maybe a few handful of exceptions.

The ultimate example of the cult RPG, IMO, is Tekumel. I looked at the setting back in '79 or so. Nothing in the setting was familiar, so I didn't touch it. I've heard the detail is amazing and it's a great setting, but I still wouldn't play in it because there would be too much of a learning curve.

Glorantha is borderline, IMO. When I started playing Runequest, it was the perfect balance. It had very cool things that were different. The map of Sartar & Prax cried out "the gods have walked here." At the same time, you had the local tavern and pawn shop in Apple Lane.

The Scarred Lands is a campaign world I feel walks the line, too. It's different enough to be enticing, but not so different that you have to worry about too much strangeness.

Dark Sun was too far on the other side of the line for me, but not too far. For me it seemed too much like they changed things just for the sake of changing things. Flesh eating halfings? Desert dwelling elves?

So, how far do you think a publisher would have to go to make a setting "different," while still maintaining enough familiarity so that it could be a viable, long lasting, commercial success (even if not a huge success)?

 

[Wombat]

Part of the problem with this question is "Different from what?"

For example: I am not fond of the base D&D settings (Greyhawk, Forgotten Realms). Both of them have far too much magic (especially in terms of items) for my taste, far too many intelligent races, far too little interaction between cultures. So I would want a setting very different from these.

OTOH, I often play around with demi-historical settings (hmm, let's take Norman Sicily, add magic, alter the maps, but set the tech level, etc.). In this case I would want my game very little different, in the aggragate, from the base material.

I am fascinated with Tekumel and Jorune, yet I don't have a strong enough feel for either place to run it as a campaign of my own -- essentially they feel like ultra-specific "House" campaigns built up over decades, that feel right for the people who have been playing all that time, but probably not for outsiders.

In the end, I feel far more comfortable creating my own setting (or basing it vaguely on historical events) than trying to borrow someone else's. It's the difference, in my mind, between grabbing any old shirt off the rack (without first checking the size) and getting a custom tailored shirt -- once you feel the difference, it's very hard to go back.

 

[I'm A Banana]

Semi-historical/mythological settings are often the best choice.

Think of OA, or Nyambe. While these retain the basic rules and tropes of D&D, they overlay the flavor of a different culture. I think that Eberron may do the same thing, overlaying pulp/noir over D&D.

Run with that. Do something of a different nation, or a different flavor. Do something Rennaisence, or something Rome. Ignore the history, steal liberally from the myth, and run with it.

The best campaign settings just overlay their flavor onto what already exists in D&D. What FR and GH do is overlay a setting of high magic and ancient history, and high adventure and recent turmoil respectively. What Dark Sun does is....well, yeah, sometimes just different for the sake of being different....but they overlay survivalist, gritty action. What Ravenloft does is overlay horror, Spelljammer overlays semi-nautical sci-fi, and Planescape overlays a jaded world of adventurers and wonder.

No campaign setting really lasts forever. Unless you can 'unseat' FR (not a likely thing, what with as loyal as RPG fans can be), or the Scarred Lands (also not a likely thing) you're doomed to always be less. So it's best to publish a great sourcebook, and leave the details to if people are interested.

 

[Geoffrey]

I just wish world settings would be published that don't include dwarves, elves, halflings, and gnomes.

 

[Tonguez]

I just wish world settings would be published that don't include dwarves, elves, halflings, and gnomes.

or humans
"hey Joey look in this setting all the PCs are primordial ameoba, kewl!"

 

[Dark Jezter]

When it comes to campaign settings, I don't get why so many people think that "dark and gritty" or "dark fantasy" automatically equals good (same with "low magic"). I've actually had a couple of conversations like this...

Gamer: "Dude, you need to check out this new campaign setting. It rocks!"
Me: "What's it like?"
Gamer: "Well, it's a grim and hopeless world, where monsters are everywhere and most of the world is ruled by evil overlords. Oh, and magic users are rare and feared by all."
Me: "Does the world have a rich history? Are the campaign-specific creatures, spells, feats, and classes balanced? Does the setting have good adventuring opportunities? Are the illustrations eye-pleasing, or do they make your eyes bleed just by looking at them?"
Gamer: "I wouldn't expect you to understand. Go back to your newbieish powergaming, high-magic, dungeon-crawling Forgotten Realms or Greyhawk or whatever it is you play."
Me: "Whatever..."

Okay, so maybe the conversations didn't go exactly like that, but that's the general gist of them.

 

[I'm A Banana]

Yes, and that annoys me to no end.

I can have fun in a gritty or low magic world, or even one with both...but it's no more valid than a high magic where a tree stretches into the moon...

 

[Trickstergod]

That's just it; it's not about making a setting as different as possible, it's about using traditional fantasy archetypes putting your own spin on them.

Take a look at Midnight. There's no getting around the influence Tolkien has had on the setting, much the same as there's no getting around the influence Tolkien has had on D&D as a whole. With that in mind, one might think it would be old and done with, and that Midnight should not be enjoying the success it currently is. That's obviously not the case, though, seeing as how the four books initially planned for the setting will have more added to their number later this year, despite Fantasy Flight Games initial intention to just leave it at four. It's done this by playing upon traditional, familiar fantasy archetypes and influences, and putting them into a new light, a new twist.

Which is the key to a successful campaign setting, in my opinion. Something familiar, from a different perspective. The more that can be done, the better.

Whereas settings that are different for difference's sake may not last long. For my part, I'll be honest when I say I'm waiting to see what becomes of Arcana Unearthed, or at least, the Diamond Throne. I believe Monte Cook's stamp is all that either necessarily have going for them, and that eventually, that won't be enough to keep peoples interests. From what I've seen of it, it seems fairly distant from what's "familiar."

Then again, that might just be because I personally don't find Arcana Unearthed all that appealing.

In either case, folk need something they can relate to, in my opinion.

 

[Turjan]

Whereas settings that are different for difference's sake may not last long. For my part, I'll be honest when I say I'm waiting to see what becomes of Arcana Unearthed, or at least, the Diamond Throne. I believe Monte Cook's stamp is all that either necessarily have going for them, and that eventually, that won't be enough to keep peoples interests. From what I've seen of it, it seems fairly distant from what's "familiar."

Then again, that might just be because I personally don't find Arcana Unearthed all that appealing.

That's a very good point.

I was really looking forward to reading Arcana Unearthed, but when it finally arrived, it didn't grab me (As far as my personal taste goes, Monte is as bad at fluff and atmosphere as he is good at rules). After a while I took it into my hands again, and I found that the rules in there are real gems. But, for familiarity's sake , I won't use the races in there. I don't like giants and walking pets as PC's, although I may keep the Mojh, which are a fine concept. I also like this advancement of humanoid pixies to fey sprytes, although I will transfer it in a similar way to elves. I suppose, I prefer altered standard races . I have a problem with the class names, too. A name like "unfettered" makes me shiver. For personal use, I decided to replace the names by the old-fashioned PHB ones.

But the setting itself is lost on me. It just has no soul.

 

[Glyfair]

I just wish world settings would be published that don't include dwarves, elves, halflings, and gnomes.

Actually, it was something like this that originally brought the question to my mind. I've seen this comment a lot and know some people want a campaign world without dwarves, elves, etc. However, when Unearthed Arcana came out someone posted that they heard there would be different races present and were disappointed that the races were the same old stuff.

So, he doesn't want elves, etc. and he doesn't want animal connected races, dragon like races, psionic races, etc. What does he want? Apparently something so far out there, no one has seen it before.

Now, I know if I saw a setting like that, I'd put it right down. I don't want to have to learn about a dozen new "different races" and try to keep straight which one is which. ("Now which race was the one with an extra arm, no depth perception and a fear of water?")

It's seems to me that at least some of the players who are looking for something wildly different are looking for someone to publish a game world that only a few dozen people would be interested in. Who would publish that, except as a vanity project?