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How different PC motivations support sandbox and campaign play

pemerton

Legend
Your examples demonstrate the move from a broad (general) motivation to a narrow (specific) one. Did you mean to describe it the other way?
Yes. I didn't describe the motivations as narrow, but the framing of them. Perhaps "sparse" or "thin" would be a better word than "narrow", but I think my meaning was fairly clear.

Broad motivation: defeat evil.

Narrow motivation: defeat Sauron by casting the One Ring into the fires of Mount Doom.

The former provides more opportunity for the player to become invested in the game (because he's chosen his goals for himself). The latter provides more material for the DM to work with (secure in the knowledge that that material will be used during the course of the game).
I don't follow this. If I write up a PC whose goal is to defeat evil, I have almost no control over what my goal will be in the game - it will be about defeating whatever evil the GM serves up. (And I think this is how [MENTION=21169]Doug McCrae[/MENTION] was envisaging things.)

Whereas if I write up a PC whose goal is to defeat Sauron by casting the One Ring into the fires of Mount Doom, I have chosen a goal for myself and had a significant influence over the campaign backstory and the content of the shared fiction.

In my experience, this latter approach is an effective way to establish PC motivations that will support a campaign.
 

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Simon T. Vesper

First Post
If I write up a PC whose goal is to defeat evil, I have almost no control over what my goal will be in the game - it will be about defeating whatever evil the GM serves up...

Whereas if I write up a PC whose goal is to defeat Sauron by casting the One Ring into the fires of Mount Doom, I have chosen a goal for myself and had a significant influence over the campaign backstory and the content of the shared fiction.

Got it. We're coming at this from a vastly different perspective.

As a GM, I don't serve up anything. I present the world to the players and if they are inclined, they interact with it. If the players tell me that their motivation is to defeat evil, then I might phrase my presentation in terms meant to attract their attention. Instead of a local landlord being in need of assistance fighting bandits, I'll talk about how the bandits have good motivations because the landlord is an evil person (though the actual presentation is a bit more nuanced).

I would think, however, that such a specific goal ~ One Ring in the fires of Mount Doom ~ would end up restricting the player. Sure, you want to destroy the evil artifact in this manner, but what if there's another way?

Either way, it's up to the player to decide which courses of action align with his goal.
 

Doug McCrae

Legend
Yes. I didn't describe the motivations as narrow, but the framing of them. Perhaps "sparse" or "thin" would be a better word than "narrow", but I think my meaning was fairly clear.
They're kind of 'one size fits all' motivations that will work for almost any adventure, and as a consequence fail to express much in the way of character.

I was coming at it by thinking about two contrasting playstyles - Gygaxian sandbox play and Dragonlance style adventure path play - and wondering why it is that different motivations are associated with each. Also I was thinking about the D&D dungeon in a very minimal way as something containing treasure/magic items and monsters and figuring out potential motivations from that.

Starting something of a tangent now it occurs to me that another aspect to these two playstyles is the different relationships between the PCs. In Gygaxian play the PCs don't seem to like one another very much, adventuring together out of necessity, whereas the Dragonlance (and Tolkienian) protagonists seem to be friends. The Gygaxian playstyle is often seen as being best represented in Appendix N by Conan, Cugel the Clever, and Fafhrd & the Grey Mouser. But the thing about the last two is that they are great friends (while still being thoroughly larcenous!)
 

pemerton

Legend
They're kind of 'one size fits all' motivations that will work for almost any adventure, and as a consequence fail to express much in the way of character.
Right. They're not bad motivations if I'm bringing along a PC to a new club game or pick-up game. For a more satisfying or deeper campaign I think something a bit richer might be better.

I was coming at it by thinking about two contrasting playstyles - Gygaxian sandbox play and Dragonlance style adventure path play - and wondering why it is that different motivations are associated with each. Also I was thinking about the D&D dungeon in a very minimal way as something containing treasure/magic items and monsters and figuring out potential motivations from that.

Starting something of a tangent now it occurs to me that another aspect to these two playstyles is the different relationships between the PCs. In Gygaxian play the PCs don't seem to like one another very much, adventuring together out of necessity, whereas the Dragonlance (and Tolkienian) protagonists seem to be friends. The Gygaxian playstyle is often seen as being best represented in Appendix N by Conan, Cugel the Clever, and Fafhrd & the Grey Mouser. But the thing about the last two is that they are great friends (while still being thoroughly larcenous!)
Even Conan, while something of a loner, is often loyal to the given sidekick of an episode. The loner-ish-ness seems more of a literary device than a deep feature of his personality.

I ran a session of Castle Amber using AD&D rules a couple of weekends ago. (Half the gang couldn't make it to the session, so we did something else for a lark.) One player rolled everything about his PC (race: half-orc; class: cleric; alignment: LE) but even so came up with a personality for engaging the NPCs ("I'm here to collect taxes. If you have't got a valid notice of assessment for the current period, then you'll have t pay up!"). The other two played elves, who were cousins, and in short order were engaging with the mystery of the module (where did the grey mist come from? - the module answers this one; how did an ogre get in and kill Janet Amber and hide her body up the chimney? - the module leaves this one as an exercise for the reader).

So even silly classic play, it seems to me, can easily lead to, or have room for, PCs with a wider range of motivations than merely looting. (Although maybe Castle Amber is distinctive for its number of NPCs? Tomb of Horrors is probably different in this respect.)

When it comes to DL-type adventuring, I think it makes sense to have the players take part in establishing the set-up and the relationships between the PCs. That way you get richer motivations than simply "defeat evil", and you have more player buy-in from the start. I think that is also more likely to get you things like Kitiara (? have I got that right? Tanis's ex-girlfriend now being an evil dragon hierarch) than simple GM fiat: which also means your "dungeon" now has more than just treasure and magic items. (Even back in the early 80s Roger Musson was writing about the importance of NPCs in dungeon design, although I don't think he talked about the "next step" of players participating in establishing the backstory and situation.)

To finish this post with a new tangent: the Gygaxian playstyle relies pretty heavily on GM authority (to design the dungeon; to adjudicate the traps/tricks; to reveal the secrets only when the players make the right moves, like using divination magic; etc). The DL-type approach carries this over, but I think in more of a cargo-cultish way than for any particularly good reason. It's bad for Gygaxian play if the players know what's in the next room by the PCs don't. But it's good for DL-type play if the players know that the GM is going to work their ex-girlfriend, now bitter and probably fallen in with the wrong crowd, into the situation in some fashion even though the PC doesn't know anything about what's happened to her since they parted ways years ago.
 

Riley37

First Post
I was coming at it by thinking about two contrasting playstyles - Gygaxian sandbox play and Dragonlance style adventure path play - and wondering why it is that different motivations are associated with each.

You're still discussing motivation as if there were no distinction or relationship between player motivation and PC motivation. I doubt you're going to reach a satisfying answer, until you do. If there IS an answer, which satisfies you, and which doesn't examine that connection, then hurray; I'm just saying, I think you'll get better results, for YOUR purposes, if you engage that topic.

Also I was thinking about the D&D dungeon in a very minimal way as something containing treasure/magic items and monsters and figuring out potential motivations from that.

Well, you can do that, if you like. That's not an accurate description of the foundational examples (so to speak) which put "dungeon" in the name of the game. The first dungeon, so far as I know, was the basement and sub-basement levels of Castle Blackmoor. The Baron's hired wizard had abruptly quit his job and vanished into the basement of the Baron's castle. The Baron was not comfortable with that happening *under the place where he lived*. The Baron therefore sent soldiers - the first "adventurer" player-characters, some of whom advanced to Hero - down into the dungeon, to find out what the wizard was up to, and to identify and neutralize any threats *to the Baron's home*. This is not going off into the unknown, like Starship Enterprise wandering into the Sigma-Phi Quadrant; the Call to Adventure was coming from within the house. Did I mention that the Baron had a direct, personal, immediate motive?

Also, it was literally the basement of David Arneson's house. Be careful in the laundry room! Traps!

The Steading of the Hill Giant Chief was not just a dungeon; not on the surface level. It was a base of operations, from which some hill giants were raiding farms. Those farms were part of the local nobility's vassal population, and thus their tax base. The hill giants are not just minding their own business when the PCs show up; they are part of a long game plan against humanity, and there's an evil mastermind directing their operations. Gygax doesn't decide player motives nor PC motives, but he DID write motives for the NPC nobles who recruit the adventurers, for Nosnra the hill giant chief, and for Nosnra's sponsor. Gygax did not write "Steading of the Hill Giant Chief" merely as "here's a place where you can kill people and take their stuff, if that's your purpose in life".
 
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Riley37

First Post
Pondering further: maybe one of the differences, is also something about the motivations of NPCs, and how those interact with the motivations of PCs, AND the motivations of players.

Arneson wrote a Baron with a compelling, immediate interest in the exploration of his own castle's dungeon. All the PCs started with a motivation following from the Baron's motivation, because they were his soldiers. I don't comprehensively know the motives of the players, but I imagine that curiosity was high among them, because Arneson was trying to break new ground in miniatures wargaming, perhaps into something else. I speculated, in another thread, whether Saelorn was the player who decided that his soldier would rather desert, than die in the dungeon; the player who walked out of the session, rather than "metagame" his soldier PC as willing to go into the depths, a willingness which was irrational for the PC but convenient for the player.

Gygax wrote the nobles in G1 as having a strong pragmatic motive, and relied on that to motivate the PCs, mainly by death threats IIRC, though that's questionably plausible, since the PCs could leave the Steading and go elsewhere, if they had the skills to survive the journey to other lands with other nobles.

How does that compare with motivations of NPCs in a DL-style game?
 

Doug McCrae

Legend
You're still discussing motivation as if there were no distinction or relationship between player motivation and PC motivation.
Well, in the Gygaxian playstyle there isn't a distinction because there's no such thing as PC motivation. The players want to win by beating the dungeon and they use their PCs as tools to achieve that aim.

In modern play, the players engage with the GM's content because they've turned up to play a roleplaying game, they want the session to be entertaining, and they don't want to be impolite to the GM. Those motivations seem quite different from PC motivations, though maybe there's a parallel with the 'thrillseeker' motivation I mentioned in the OP.
 

Ilbranteloth

Explorer
Yeah but very few of them have gone on a series of adventures from 1st to Name level, starting off with battling orcs in caves, bagging a few vampires and neo-otyughs along the way, and finishing it off with killing Tiamat.

Well, okay maybe Sir Richard Burton did all that, but no one else has.

Exactly. Which is why we have everybody have multiple characters, and they are always creating more. Because a lot of the time the characters move onto something else. We do it for a number of practical reasons as well, the primary one being that we don't have to worry about whether everybody can make it every week. If somebody can't make a session, then we switch to another group of characters for that week. So there are always multiple story arcs being written, some related, some not, and there are also always PCs that are recuperating and involved in downtime activities as well.

And some of those characters do go on longer adventuring careers, but many of them don't.
 

Ilbranteloth

Explorer
Well, in the Gygaxian playstyle there isn't a distinction because there's no such thing as PC motivation. The players want to win by beating the dungeon and they use their PCs as tools to achieve that aim.

In modern play, the players engage with the GM's content because they've turned up to play a roleplaying game, they want the session to be entertaining, and they don't want to be impolite to the GM. Those motivations seem quite different from PC motivations, though maybe there's a parallel with the 'thrillseeker' motivation I mentioned in the OP.

Well, in the Gygaxian playstyle there isn't a distinction because there's no such thing as PC motivation. The players want to win by beating the dungeon and they use their PCs as tools to achieve that aim.

In modern play, the players engage with the GM's content because they've turned up to play a roleplaying game, they want the session to be entertaining, and they don't want to be impolite to the GM. Those motivations seem quite different from PC motivations, though maybe there's a parallel with the 'thrillseeker' motivation I mentioned in the OP.

Well, I think that's only true to the extent that it was the early stages of RPGs and the game was built around the motivations the players had for their characters in Gygax's and Arneson's campaigns. The game was new, it had a level of re-playability that I don't think any other game had at the time, and the wonder and excitement came from working through the latest creative ideas of the DM, so PC motivation was only needed to extent that it got them going in the adventure.

I do think that the strengths and focus of the people involved are important, though. Gygax was clearly interested in the game/adventure design part of things. I think this was both a natural inclination and also grew, or was reinforced, by being the primary DM/designer at TSR at the time. In other words, it wasn't his job to focus on PC motivations, that was up to the players to address. But I think the rules also reflect the PC motivations of his players at the time. It wasn't long before articles from folks like Ed Greenwood started exploring the other side of role playing, with lots of lore and complex motivations of NPCs and, by extension, PCs. But then he came from a different perspective. He thought the game was a great opportunity to bring to life the world and characters he'd been creating in his fiction. His approach has always been a view of the world from the character's perspective. Whether that character is the villain or a PC.

I'm not sure, but I think Dragonlance was the first Adventure Path style approach where there is a relatively linear plot on top of the adventure points. These three approaches highlight three major approaches to PC motivation.

Gygax leaned toward a sandbox, with PC and NPC motivations only really required to the extent that they intersect with the action in the adventure. So for an NPC you really needed to know their present disposition, and a basic understanding of who they are, which usually amounted to their profession. You don't need to know any more about the merchant, just address the reaction rules while you haggle. The extent of PC motivations, however, is entirely up to the players. So yes, many people reduce that down to the bare minimum of character motivation, and it often matches player motivation. But it doesn't preclude PC motivations, nor prevent them from being different than player motivations.

Greenwood was seemingly the opposite - it was all about the motivations and personalities of the PCs and NPCs. Cities aren't just home bases to equip and recuperate, they are often the center of the adventure. And the adventure may have nothing to do with monsters and dungeons. It could be a mystery at a party in a noble's villa. White Wolf and other storyteller games would expand greatly upon this approach. The world is often richly developed, as are the NPCs, politics and such. All to provide more potential hooks for the PCs to latch onto based on their motivations.

Dragonlance was something different. It took the linear design of a dungeon and applied it to a campaign in the form of a plot. Where Gygax might have the barest hint of a plot, and Greenwood has lots of ongoing plots and schemes behind the scenes, the Dragonlance saga was all about one central plot. The PCs are roles to play in much the same way an actor adopts a role on stage or in a movie. As the player you have a fair amount of freedom in your interpretation, performance and actions, but little impact on the larger, overarching story. PC motivations are quite important, but are often provided to you by the author.

What's kind of interesting is how these different approaches have been mixed up in different ways. They aren't mutually exclusive, and the focus of each of the principles was different. Gygax was focused on the dungeon design. The design of the adventure itself was a driving factor or a focus. Part of being a skillful DM was the clever design of your dungeon and adventure.

For Greenwood, it is still a sandbox that allows exploration of the setting, the focus is as a sandbox that explores the characters. It's not that far removed from a Gygax sandbox in that the setting is usually wide open for exploration. The real difference, I think, is that the narrative is more driven by the players/characters than the DM, and the focus is on the narrative and not the dungeon. The DM can still have a lot of input in the narrative through events and NPCs, but it's more suggestive, in the form of hooks, and if the PCs take the hook, then the adventure heads in that direction. It's more of an evolution of the Gygax sandbox to me. The design intent may be less about being clever and more about being immersive.

Dragonlance, on the other hand, was neither. It was playing a part in a story. The setting wasn't really a sandbox (if you were playing the adventures) and neither were the characters. Instead it was an exploration of specific characters in a specific set of circumstances. Where both Gygax and Greenwood were conducive to the players having many PCs, and character death was quite possible, Dragonlance was more about exploring a single character in more depth. You could, of course, in either a Gygax or Greenwood campaign explore a character in a similar fashion, But in Dragonlance, that was where you could explore the farthest as other avenues were more restricted. In theory this is also about being immersive, but that's achieved only to the extent that the players can adopt the roles of the PCs, combined with how skillful the DM is in making the adventure feel like the players have control of the plot.

As RPGs as a hobby have matured, exploring a single dungeon is not enough, and players expect there to be a setting holding things together. Modern players expect a relatively detailed setting, the ability to explore their characters (often mechanically instead of motivationally/personality wise), and a story to grab their interest.

Adventure Paths make character motivation easier but more restrictive. If you create the character for the AP, then the motivation is addressed at character creation and typically won't be a necessary factor to keep them within the AP. They have the same sort of plot structure as Dragonlance, but without requiring specific characters. The final outcome of the AP usually only has a few potential endings, but the characters have a decent amount of freedom on how they get there. Like the Gygax approach, character motivation is largely up to the PC, with the caveat that it's best to ensure that the motivation allows the continuation of the party/AP.

Story Now games are centered around the idea of character motivation as the driving focus of the entire game. That the action and events should center as much as possible around the characters and their motivations. Dungeon design, setting design, and such are often of minimal importance, and sometimes shared to various degrees with the players. In many cases, a prepared setting or adventure by the GM is discouraged, with the adventure initiated and developed through play in relation to the PC motivations. I think this is sometimes about as far from a Gygax sandbox as you can get.

While I don't particularly care for the Story Now games I've tried or checked out from a design/mechanic standpoint, what they get right is that the DM should be engaging with the motivations of the characters in the course of the campaign. There are many ways to do this, but as long as that's happening, then the players aren't just "engage(ing) with the GM's content because they've turned up to play a roleplaying game, they want the session to be entertaining, and they don't want to be impolite to the GM."

I'm not sure I'd consider that there's a group that qualifies as "in modern play," but certainly in modern game design (including 5e D&D, although not necessarily promoted within the APs), the intent is to engage with the GM's (or author's) content as the character and are as immersed in the experience as the GM. You're not really coming to be polite to the GM and experience their game. It's about a collaborative and shared experience, with each game defining the roles and boundaries between player and GM differently.

D&D in particular isn't great about promoting characters with complex motivations, but it most definitely supports them.
 

Ilbranteloth

Explorer
There are two main PC motivations in rpgs. Firstly, the pursuit of personal gain, usually money and/or magic items. Secondly the desire to defeat evil.

The first motivation, personal gain, works well with sandbox play because the game world typically contains a great many opportunities to acquire wealth and magic items - there are lots of dungeons. The second motivation, defeat evil, doesn't work so well because the amount of evil beings within easy reach of the PCs and also actively and obviously causing harm will be far fewer.

A third possible motivation is the pursuit of glory, like the heroes of the Iliad or the PCs in Pendragon, but this is unusual in rpgs. A fourth, thrillseeking, is also unusual.

Once the PCs have achieved significant wealth it's hard to justify why they would want more. Or at least, why they would expose themselves to great danger in pursuit of more. So the first motivation, personal gain, doesn't work well for long term campaign play. The second motivation, defeat evil, does as there will always be more evil.

How does one successfully combine sandbox and campaign play? The answer, it seems to me, is PCs who are motivated by personal gain but, if they ever successfully acquire fortunes, immediately lose or quickly squander them, in the manner of Conan.

I think part of what needs to be defined is what's a campaign? Wikipedia states that for an RPG campaign, it's a connected series of battles, adventures, or scenarios played by the same character. In the body it states "usually played by the same set of characters."

By this definition, in order for the campaign to continue, the characters need to remain involved. So yes, their motivations matter in that regard.

However, I think the term "campaign" came from the wargaming hobby that preceded D&D. And a military campaign is a large scale, long term series of interrelated conflicts that involve many squads and platoons.

Regardless of it's origination, I've always approached the term "campaign" with the idea that it incorporates the adventures of many different characters and parties over a period of time in the same setting. Hence the term, campaign setting. That is, a campaign is much more than a single character or group of characters, it encompasses whatever happens within the setting, although usually loosely connected. This is often through PCs, NPCs, a location and a long-running series of events (such as a war), etc. that ties things together. In my case in the Forgotten Realms, even though I've made the 4e 100-year-jump, and the players that were around in 1358 DR are no longer even living in the area, their characters and activities still factor into the group today. There are a few connecting points as well, as new players have come in and old ones have moved on.

So for me, by that definition, all character motivations help build the campaign, because new stories start when old stories end (or move in a non-adventuring direction). The setting grows, and grows more familiar, because NPCs are now ex-PCs that the players already know. Ex-PCs can become PCs again when a new motivation arises during the course of the campaign.
 

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