How different PC motivations support sandbox and campaign play

[Dannyalcatraz]

Though I 100% agree with your stance here, in fairness there is one way a DM could legitimately pull off a plausible in-game situation where magic items could not be purchased by the PCs:

The PCs are the only adventurers in the setting (alternative: they're based here but do all their adventuring in another, deserted, world/plane), and thus are the only people finding any magic items - which otherwise don't exist in the setting other than in legend, kind of like real-world Earth.

Which means they can sell 'em if they want, and for some princely sums too; but they can't buy anything they haven't previously sold/lost/had stolen because in the end they are the only primary supplier.

Now IMO a game like that would be severely lacking in a bunch of ways. I'm just trying to point out that it can, in theory, be done.

Lanefan

I didn’t say it couldn’t be done. Your described method would work...for a while. Although, if we’re being completely honest, the premise of “the PCs are the only adventurers” is equally preposterous in its own way. If nothing else, wandering bards, scouts, rangers and, of course, thieves would be out there, occasionally finding such things. And crafty merchants who know their lore would try to buy things they suspected of being magical. Especially wandering, worldly merchants in the presence of unsophisticated rubes.

If nothing else, the party's discovery and use of magic would drive others to find their own. SOMEONE is going to ask the question, “Where did they get those WONderful toys?”

I mean, if the neomystic Nazis had actually found working magical items in their searches, what are the odds that every other power capable of doing so simply wouldn’t look?

That wasn’t the description the scenario I was responding to, though.

The one way I could see a “no commerce” setting working long term is if all magic items- at least those over a certain “hedge witch/alchemist” level- were not universally usable. They’re attuned to a certain class, species, bloodline or even a particular person, for instance, and won’t work for anyone else.

Even then, though, there would be a market for them either for their intrinsic craftsmanship, as a future bargaining tool, or simply to deprive someone else of their use. And of course, those who COULD use a particular item would doubtless be willing to pay to do so...if they could afford the asking price.*


* of the seller or a thief.

 

[Jhaelen]

I’m curious, how does one run a campaign without any way to buy magic items? To paraphrase Dr. Ian Malcom, “Commerce...uh...finds a way.”

Easily.
In the Ars Magica RPG it's the default. In fact, supplying mundanes that do not belong to your Covenant with magic items is reason for exclusion from the Order of Hermes.
In addition, almost all magic items are designed to only work for their intended recipient. They're useless for anyone else.

In many RPG systems and settings, there's a distinction between 'high magic' and 'low magic', e.g. only 'low magic' items like potions are ever sold. This is e.g. the case in 13th Age or the 'Dark Sun' setting. So, while there may be _some_ magic items for sale, they aren't in sufficient supply to provide a way to 'burn' your money.

 

[Riley37]

I’m curious, how does one run a campaign without any way to buy magic items? To paraphrase Dr. Ian Malcom, “Commerce...uh...finds a way.”

Boot Hill
Top Secret

If you did Robin Hood or Doyle's The White Company as TRPG, there's no magic item transactions in the source material.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Easily.
In the Ars Magica RPG it's the default. In fact, supplying mundanes that do not belong to your Covenant with magic items is reason for exclusion from the Order of Hermes.
In addition, almost all magic items are designed to only work for their intended recipient. They're useless for anyone else.

In many RPG systems and settings, there's a distinction between 'high magic' and 'low magic', e.g. only 'low magic' items like potions are ever sold. This is e.g. the case in 13th Age or the 'Dark Sun' setting. So, while there may be _some_ magic items for sale, they aren't in sufficient supply to provide a way to 'burn' your money.

Essentially covered in post #51.

The one way I could see a “no commerce” setting working long term is if all magic items- at least those over a certain “hedge witch/alchemist” level- were not universally usable. They’re attuned to a certain class, species, bloodline or even a particular person, for instance, and won’t work for anyone else.

As I continued:

Even then, though, there would be a market for them either for their intrinsic craftsmanship, as a future bargaining tool, or simply to deprive someone else of their use. And of course, those who COULD use a particular item would doubtless be willing to pay to do so...if they could afford the asking price.*

Consider the Dutchy of Grand Fenwick. When they got their hands on the Quadium Bomb, despite their inability to actually use it (at least, not without destroying themselves), they nonetheless used it as a political bargaining chip. If nothing else, as long as they had it, no one else could use it.

Now, they didn’t actually buy the Quadium Bomb, but don’t think for one minute that the other governors of the world weren’t trying to buy it FROM them. None could afford a price that the Dutchy would agree to, though.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Boot Hill
Top Secret

I see what you did there.

If you did Robin Hood or Doyle's The White Company as TRPG, there's no magic item transactions in the source material.

If you look at MOST legends and genre fiction, there is little or no occurrence of magic item transaction...because

1) most of the source material doesn’t pay close attention to commerce of any kind. You rarely see Conan haggling over a horse, but you know that commerce in horses occurs within the setting.

2) few fictional settings are as chock full of magical gewgaws as even a relatively low-magic FRPG, much less D&D. But mere rarity alone does not kill the possibility of buying and selling, it just raises the prices.

 

[Lanefan]

If you look at MOST legends and genre fiction, there is little or no occurrence of magic item transaction...because

1) most of the source material doesn’t pay close attention to commerce of any kind. You rarely see Conan haggling over a horse, but you know that commerce in horses occurs within the setting.

2) few fictional settings are as chock full of magical gewgaws as even a relatively low-magic FRPG, much less D&D. But mere rarity alone does not kill the possibility of buying and selling, it just raises the prices.

There's magic items in The Hobbit and Lord of the Rings; and while there's history of some of them being stolen or murdered for or looted or just simply found lying around there's no history of any ever being sold or bought, even though they clearly hold great value. The nearest to any such transaction is in The Hobbit when Bilbo tries to claim the Arkenstone (which I've always assumed to be a magic item) as his 1/14th share.

There are, however, numerous examples of magic items being given away for free. Galadhriel gives everyone a magical or quasi-magical gift when they leave Lothlorien. The Dwarves give Bilbo a (I assume magical) mithril shirt as part of his share/reward - once they've got over that whole claim-the-Arkenstone thing. And so on.

But never a sale, and never a purchase.

Lan-"and note I'm arguing against myself here, as to me a magic item economy of some sort is completely logical"-efan

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

There's magic items in The Hobbit and Lord of the Rings; and while there's history of some of them being stolen or murdered for or looted or just simply found lying around there's no history of any ever being sold or bought, even though they clearly hold great value. The nearest to any such transaction is in The Hobbit when Bilbo tries to claim the Arkenstone (which I've always assumed to be a magic item) as his 1/14th share.

There are, however, numerous examples of magic items being given away for free. Galadhriel gives everyone a magical or quasi-magical gift when they leave Lothlorien. The Dwarves give Bilbo a (I assume magical) mithril shirt as part of his share/reward - once they've got over that whole claim-the-Arkenstone thing. And so on.

But never a sale, and never a purchase.

Lan-"and note I'm arguing against myself here, as to me a magic item economy of some sort is completely logical"-efan

First of all, LotR falls squarely under the second part of what you quoted:

few fictional settings are as chock full of magical gewgaws as even a relatively low-magic FRPG, much less D&D. But mere rarity alone does not kill the possibility of buying and selling, it just raises the prices.

Second, gifting, while not purchasing, is an economic activity. That items of a particular type are given by someone does not nullify the possibility of someone selling them. The elves give the items because they are needed and the recipients respected. Unless- like a white elephant in Indian culture- the item gifted is such that sale would be a personal affront to the giver (who also happens to be the head of government) someone likely sold or bartered one away. You can’t replant your fields (flooded before harvest last year) with your father’s magical greathelm worn in the Trollkin Wars, but selling it- even at “fire sale” prices might buy you enough seed to save your farm and feed your family.

Third, while a particular item’s history does not include any known instance of being sold does not mean that NO items of that kind were ever sold.

Fourth, an item valued enough to kill for or hoard implies its valued just like filthy lucre. If someone would kill for something, someone would be willing to pay a willing seller to acquire.

 

[Lanefan]

First of all, LotR falls squarely under the second part of what you quoted:

Second, gifting, while not purchasing, is an economic activity. That items of a particular type are given by someone does not nullify the possibility of someone selling them. The elves give the items because they are needed and the recipients respected. Unless- like a white elephant in Indian culture- the item gifted is such that sale would be a personal affront to the giver (who also happens to be the head of government) someone likely sold or bartered one away. You can’t replant your fields (flooded before harvest last year) with your father’s magical greathelm worn in the Trollkin Wars, but selling it- even at “fire sale” prices might buy you enough seed to save your farm and feed your family.

Third, while a particular item’s history does not include any known instance of being sold does not mean that NO items of that kind were ever sold.

Fourth, an item valued enough to kill for or hoard implies its valued just like filthy lucre. If someone would kill for something, someone would be willing to pay a willing seller to acquire.

Isildur never offered to buy the One Ring from Sauron. Instead, he chopped his finger off and took it.

Smeagol never offered to buy the One Ring from Deagol. Instead, he asked Deagol to give it to him as a birthday present and killed him for it when he refused.

The Palantirs were never bought/sold. They changed hands only by either force or bad luck.

Need I go on?

Another example: Game of Thrones has a few magic items floating around in it but none of them to my recollection have ever been bought or sold.

 

[Shasarak]

Isildur never offered to buy the One Ring from Sauron. Instead, he chopped his finger off and took it.

Smeagol never offered to buy the One Ring from Deagol. Instead, he asked Deagol to give it to him as a birthday present and killed him for it when he refused.

The Palantirs were never bought/sold. They changed hands only by either force or bad luck.

Need I go on?

Another example: Game of Thrones has a few magic items floating around in it but none of them to my recollection have ever been bought or sold.

Did anyone in the Lord of the Rings have any money to buy magical items?

It seems like the Dwarven Kingdoms probably made and sold magical items before they were destroyed by Dragon and Balrogs. The Elves definitely had magical items that could have been sold or traded since they were giving them away.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Did anyone in the Lord of the Rings have any money to buy magical items?

It seems like the Dwarven Kingdoms probably made and sold magical items before they were destroyed by Dragon and Balrogs.

Good point! The makers of magical items weren’t doing it as altruists. They probably weren’t making them for personal use.

They’re probably receiving SOME kind of compensation. Master craftsmen gotsta eat, meaning they gotsta get paid.

[video=youtube;kaIZWjItReI]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kaIZWjItReI[/video]

The Elves definitely had magical items that could have been sold or traded since they were giving them away.

“Honey, where are those magic swords we’re giving the adventurers?”

“Did you look in the leftover sword cabinet?”

“I don’t want to give them THOSE!!! Where are the crappy ones?”

“Look in the storage shed, over by the Ents’ Grove. Probably next to the Bin of Rings near your Wardrobe of Cloaks and Transplanar Transport. The brown one, not the blue one. The blue box belongs to your friend The Medic.”

“Thanks, dear!”