How different PC motivations support sandbox and campaign play

[Jhaelen]

Second, gifting, while not purchasing, is an economic activity. [...]

Umm, yeah.
I think your examples are increasingly far-fetched in order to prove your point.

When we're at a point where 'a particular item’s history does not include any known instance of being sold does not mean that NO items of that kind were ever sold.' there's no meaningful discussion to be had.
OF COURSE, you cannot ever absolutely claim that something does never happen. There are no absolutes, and once in an aeon a universe may spontaneously collapse.

I think you've lost track of the original point: We're facing the problem of PCs looking for ways to burn their gold by buying magic items. If you have to fabricate a string of extremely rare conditions to come up with a scenario where a magic item might be for sale, the GM would be perfectly right to rule it's simply not possible.

You could build an adventure or even a string of adventures to bring about this rarest of occasions, but then it's no longer a reasonable way to burn the piles of gold you've already accumulated in your past adventures.

P.S.: I've been thinking about mentioning the 'Pendragon' RPG as another example where magic items exist but would probably never be sold. But it's actually a perfect example for a game where player characters would be very interested in building castles - so there's definitely ways to burn your money in Pendragon without having to introduce magic shops.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Umm, yeah.
I think your examples are increasingly far-fetched in order to prove your point.

When we're at a point where 'a particular item’s history does not include any known instance of being sold does not mean that NO items of that kind were ever sold.' there's no meaningful discussion to be had.

There is always going to be a serious disconnect between written fiction. Writers concentrate on moving the stories forward, without needing to look at mechanics. The writer has complete control. RPGs are based in mechanics, and are cooperative fictions.

Ignore Fantasy stories for a minute, and instead look a gangster fiction. How many times in the setting of Mario Puzo’s Godfather fiction do people use guns? Now, how many times does Puzo detail the history of a weapon?

Does a lack of that detail imply that commerce in guns does not exist? Do we make that assumption?

If not, why would we assume that people of Middle Earth wouldn’t sell magic items, just because JRRT doesn’t talk about selling those?

I think you've lost track of the original point: We're facing the problem of PCs looking for ways to burn their gold by buying magic items. If you have to fabricate a string of extremely rare conditions to come up with a scenario where a magic item might be for sale, the GM would be perfectly right to rule it's simply not possible.

I haven’t lost track of that at all. I’ve seen goodness knows how many threads here about the same subject. And too often, I see someone advocate the draconian use of DM fiat- “no buying or selling of magic items.”

Look at real-world commerce. Just because something is for sale, it doesn’t mean it is available where you are. It doesn’t mean it is in stock at this time or from this seller. Stores- even eCommerce giants like Amazon- run out of X, Y, and Z.

In a D&D campaign in which I was a player, there was a perfect example of this involving a non-magical but rare weapon my character wanted. We were not near a major city, but my PC approached a local but notably skilled weaponsmith to craft one as a masterwork weapon, suitable for enchantment. My PC had the money, but the weaponsmith needed time to learn how to make a proper one. It took months of campaign time before he succeeded in creating a masterwork piece.

And there is one I don’t really fault people for missing, but...just because something is widely known to be a certain price in general, it does not follow that it is that price everywhere.

One of my other hobbies is playing guitar. I own a bunch, and I help others all over the world find instruments suitable to their needs. I can tell you that buyers in places like England, India and Australia often pay 3-5x for certain guitars as compared to people in the USA or the mainland EU.

So the thing is, you don’t have to run a campaign as HAGGLE!: the RPG, but you also don’t have to stick to prices published in the rulebooks as universal.

I've been thinking about mentioning the 'Pendragon' RPG as another example where magic items exist but would probably never be sold. But it's actually a perfect example for a game where player characters would be very interested in building castles - so there's definitely ways to burn your money in Pendragon without having to introduce magic shops.

I said nary a peep about magic shops. Magic shops are not a necessary consequence nor a precondition of selling magic items.

 

[Ovinomancer]

There is always going to be a serious disconnect between written fiction. Writers concentrate on moving the stories forward, without needing to look at mechanics. The writer has complete control. RPGs are based in mechanics, and are cooperative fictions.

Ignore Fantasy stories for a minute, and instead look a gangster fiction. How many times in the setting of Mario Puzo’s Godfather fiction do people use guns? Now, how many times does Puzo detail the history of a weapon?

Does a lack of that detail imply that commerce in guns does not exist? Do we make that assumption?

If not, why would we assume that people of Middle Earth wouldn’t sell magic items, just because JRRT doesn’t talk about selling those?



I haven’t lost track of that at all. I’ve seen goodness knows how many threads here about the same subject. And too often, I see someone advocate the draconian use of DM fiat- “no buying or selling of magic items.”

Look at real-world commerce. Just because something is for sale, it doesn’t mean it is available where you are. It doesn’t mean it is in stock at this time or from this seller. Stores- even eCommerce giants like Amazon- run out of X, Y, and Z.

In a D&D campaign in which I was a player, there was a perfect example of this involving a non-magical but rare weapon my character wanted. We were not near a major city, but my PC approached a local but notably skilled weaponsmith to craft one as a masterwork weapon, suitable for enchantment. My PC had the money, but the weaponsmith needed time to learn how to make a proper one. It took months of campaign time before he succeeded in creating a masterwork piece.

And there is one I don’t really fault people for missing, but...just because something is widely known to be a certain price in general, it does not follow that it is that price everywhere.

One of my other hobbies is playing guitar. I own a bunch, and I help others all over the world find instruments suitable to their needs. I can tell you that buyers in places like England, India and Australia often pay 3-5x for certain guitars as compared to people in the USA or the mainland EU.

So the thing is, you don’t have to run a campaign as HAGGLE!: the RPG, but you also don’t have to stick to prices published in the rulebooks as universal.



I said nary a peep about magic shops. Magic shops are not a necessary consequence nor a precondition of selling magic items.

I find when looking to real world commerce to find examples for in game realities that the examples of real world elves is often helpful.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

I find when looking to real world commerce to find examples for in game realities that the examples of real world elves is often helpful.

I find that few fantasy RPGs have elves as the only playable race.

 

[Lanefan]

I said nary a peep about magic shops. Magic shops are not a necessary consequence nor a precondition of selling magic items.

With this I agree.

With loads of variance, of course, the two most common types of magic item transactions I can see logically arising in a typical D&D setting would be:

1. Direct trade or sale between adventurers or adventuring parties. We just came in from the field with a magic katana but nobody in our group has a clue how to use one; and it seems you're trying to unload an enchanted rapier. Our gnome paladin and your front-line monk might both benefit from a trade here...

This sort of thing takes out any middlemen from the transaction, meaning everything paid by the buyer goes straight to the seller.

2. Sale through what amounts to a clearing-house, probably run by some sort of magic-users' or artificiers' guild. This would provide an avenue for these guilds to market what they had built*, and also take custom orders; and it's a short jump from there for them to be taking items on consignment for resale. Now in some games this could lead to full-on magic shops depending on the whims of the DM and-or players, but it certainly doesn't have to.

* - even if the artificers only build to custom order it's realistic to think - given the risky lifestyle adventurers lead - that not everybody is going to make it back to pick up their completed items.

Lanefan

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

This would provide an avenue for these guilds to market what they had built*, and also take custom orders; and it's a short jump from there for them to be taking items on consignment for resale. Now in some games this could lead to full-on magic shops depending on the whims of the DM and-or players, but it certainly doesn't have to.

Making something of exquisite quality takes a lot of time, beyond just making something of average quality, and more than most would imagine. The result is very few things of such quality get made.

I get a custom jewelry made every year- typically, the jewelers take 6-12 months for some of my more difficult pieces.

Some luthiers (guitar makers) make only 1-6 of their best per year, and have 2 year waiting lists. My last few custom builds took a year each. Building guitars at that level is so involved that some luthiers don’t bother with it. Some I know of even quit doing it, returning to building good but not superlative Guitars...after clearing their back orders, of course.

Simon Espinal took nearly two years to weave his masterpiece straw panama hat- called the best in the world.

Now, in many cases, there is necessarily down time in a given build, as something dries, softens, hardens, cools, heats, cures or sets, so they’re working on multiple projects at a time. But year long delivery times don’t always pay monthly bills.

Which leads craftsmen to demand up-front money...and for some, to take less involved projects with quicker turnaround times to keep the fires lit, the house standing and the family fed.

Translating that into the life of a fantasy artisan capable of the level of craftsmanship of enchantable quality, such a person might only exert such efforts when actively commissioned to do so. Magicrafting as an exclusive business model- considering time, material availability, and whatever rituals may be involved- is probably not sustainable. Not unless you’re on the royal payroll or that of a wealthy merchant house.

 

[Lanefan]

Making something of exquisite quality takes a lot of time, beyond just making something of average quality, and more than most would imagine. The result is very few things of such quality get made.

I get a custom jewelry made every year- typically, the jewelers take 6-12 months for some of my more difficult pieces.

Some luthiers (guitar makers) make only 1-6 of their best per year, and have 2 year waiting lists. My last few custom builds took a year each. Building guitars at that level is so involved that some luthiers don’t bother with it. Some I know of even quit doing it, returning to building good but not superlative Guitars...after clearing their back orders, of course.

OK.

Now put this sort of thing into a fantasy-RPG context where it's maybe 50-50 that any given customer, having paid most or all up front for the commission, will be alive to return to pick it up once it's done.

What becomes of the unclaimed pieces?

Now, in many cases, there is necessarily down time in a given build, as something dries, softens, hardens, cools, heats, cures or sets, so they’re working on multiple projects at a time. But year long delivery times don’t always pay monthly bills.

Depends how much the commission is worth.

Which leads craftsmen to demand up-front money...and for some, to take less involved projects with quicker turnaround times to keep the fires lit, the house standing and the family fed.

Translating that into the life of a fantasy artisan capable of the level of craftsmanship of enchantable quality, such a person might only exert such efforts when actively commissioned to do so. Magicrafting as an exclusive business model- considering time, material availability, and whatever rituals may be involved- is probably not sustainable. Not unless you’re on the royal payroll or that of a wealthy merchant house.

It's very sustainable.

Let's say I'm a trained artificer or high-level non-adventuring wizard. I can pay the daily bills by turning out a few potions and scrolls per month, some for open sale and others for specific uses e.g. guild training etc. Then, sometime maybe I get a commission for something bigger for which I'm paid half up front and half on pick-up, on which I put a hard and fast deadline of about double the time I think it'll take me to construct the item. The half up front is still several thousand gold pieces, meaning that even after I pay the material costs for the item I'm probably gonna be living high off the hog and can put the potion-scroll-making aside. The half-payment on pick-up is pure profit, and if it's not picked up I'll make even more by selling it on the open market once the pick-up deadline comes and goes.

One score like that and I'm set for life, given the typical fantasy-world economy.

Lanefan

 

[hawkeyefan]

In a world where magic is commonplace, or even just present, would the inhabitants make a distinction between mundane and magic items? Or such a strong delineation as we do?

For us, it’s very clear...anything that can do things or function in a way we know is impossible in the real world is magic. But that definition wouldn’t apply to the inhabitants of a world with actual magic.

So....would a weapon crafted by a dwarven master smith be considered magic? Does an item require some kind of deliberate enchantment in order to be considered magic? I feel it’s a major gray area in many settings....or it would be without our real world logic asserting itself.

In te case of D&D and similar games, that real world logic....that clear delineation between magical and not magical...takes the form of game mechanics. But in a story, there are no such mechanics. Thus, in a setting such as Middle Earth, it’s actually difficult to say what items...or even what abilities...are magical in nature.

The recent turn of discussion just got me thinking...

 

[Ovinomancer]

I find that few fantasy RPGs have elves as the only playable race.

Me, too! Weird, innit? I also find that few RPGs have real world commerce as the only acceptable commerce.

I mean, seriously, if you're going to lock-down on the unrealistic nature of one version of magic-item trade, why do you ignore the completely broken nature of the rest of the commerce system RPGs use? It's Dungeons & Dragons, not Spreedsheets & Actuaries. The very idea that a small band of modest heros (say, second tier) can go into nearby ruins and pull out thousands of GP's worth of treasure is ridiculous economy to begin with. To then take issue with the inability to buy magic items with said ridiculous income sources veers directly into a pit of questionable priorities to me.

Magic items not for sale is likely one of the least weird economic points you could pick to go after in a fantasy RPG.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

OK.

Now put this sort of thing into a fantasy-RPG context where it's maybe 50-50 that any given customer, having paid most or all up front for the commission, will be alive to return to pick it up once it's done.

What becomes of the unclaimed pieces?

Based on what I know from RW transactions with artisans...

Unless they’re dumb, a craftsman not on someone’s staff collecting a salary will usually demand at least enough up front to cover costs of starting up, if not payment in full. Some will take an installment plan, broken up to cover the stages of production, with the final payment mostly being the amount of profit.

And just like those RW artisans, the piece will be sold to someone else if the original buyer doesn’t follow through, for a price somewhere between the unpaid remainder to full price.

(On occasion, they’ll keep the piece as an example of their work.)

Depends how much the commission is worth.

The process is more important than the size of the commission.

A Somogyi or Ryan guitar costs $20k minimum, but they never work on only one at a time. There’s gaps when the instrument being constructed simply has to wait while glue dries; while newly bent wood becomes permanently set in the desired shape. There is no shortcut, no way to rush this. Instead of sitting idle, the’ll work on other projects, regardless of the price of the commission. It’s one reason why California Guitar Trio was able to get 3 identical ones at the same time.

It's very sustainable.

Let's say I'm a trained artificer or high-level non-adventuring wizard. I can pay the daily bills by turning out a few potions and scrolls per month, some for open sale and others for specific uses e.g. guild training etc. Then, sometime maybe I get a commission for something bigger for which I'm paid half up front and half on pick-up, on which I put a hard and fast deadline of about double the time I think it'll take me to construct the item. The half up front is still several thousand gold pieces, meaning that even after I pay the material costs for the item I'm probably gonna be living high off the hog and can put the potion-scroll-making aside. The half-payment on pick-up is pure profit, and if it's not picked up I'll make even more by selling it on the open market once the pick-up deadline comes and goes.

One score like that and I'm set for life, given the typical fantasy-world economy.

Lanefan

I was unclear in my post, and that’s my fault. Sorry!

What you described is precisely the business model I was talking about when I said:

...and for some, to take less involved projects...

...but did not clearly apply that to a fantasy artisan. When I talked about freelance magicrafting being unsustainable, I was thinking in terms of guys just specializing in high-cost items (staves, armors, rings, swords, etc.), without dealing in production of lesser- even mundane- items.

Now, after you make and sell a big-ticket item, you may have enough to last a lifetime*. But you know, Kings demand taxes and entropy will claim it’s due. And an unfortunate aspect of human** psychology is a tendency to squander windfalls. Until State Lottery Comissions passed certain laws requiring jackpot winners take a crash course in financial management, the average recipient blew though their winnings in 5 years. The 5 year average is still pretty much accurate for windfalls that don’t include such a course.



* maybe not elvish or dwarven

** maybe not elvish or dwarven