How do action points encourage me to take on more encounters?

[Runestar]

This was raised on the gleemax boards, and while it really is a minor, inconsequential matter, it just kept nagging at the back of my head, and so I decided to post it here for more feedback.

On pg 118 of the DMG, there is this line.

Action Points: Action points encourage characters to take on more encounters before stopping to take an extended rest.

How or why exactly is this the case? You lose all action points accumulated at the end of the day when you take an extended rest and start with 1 AP, and are limited to 1 AP/encounter anyways. It is nice to have, but I don't find myself pushing on and forcing my character through more encounters just to accumulate more action points.

Or am I simply thinking too much into it?

 

[Khime]

I think it is more like action points give players the option to push on instead of taking an extended rest. As you go from encounter to encounter without rest, you start to run out of daily resources such as magic item uses, daily powers, action points, and healing surges. Reaching milestones gives you some of them back, so you're not forced to rest every X encounters if you don't want to (especially if the adventure is on a time-table of some sort).

That's the impression I got from DMG p123, anyway.

 

[brehobit]

I think it is more like action points give players the option to push on instead of taking an extended rest. As you go from encounter to encounter without rest, you start to run out of daily resources such as magic item uses, daily powers, action points, and healing surges. Reaching milestones gives you some of them back, so you're not forced to rest every X encounters if you don't want to (especially if the adventure is on a time-table of some sort).

That's the impression I got from DMG p123, anyway.

I think it's another rule that got changed toward the end. I don't know what the old one was (perhaps start with zero, and can use more than one per encounter?) but the current rules don't make you want to push very much. (Though my fighter who just finished encounter 2 and now has 2 action points, very much wants to push onwards...)

 

[Ltheb Silverfrond]

It's not really an incentive to continue, but by having the extra action points at milestones, it gives the players the ability continue. Action points are, arguably, one of the most powerful resources the PCs can have. If the players make use of intelligent tactics, they don't really need daily powers or healing surges if they can blast a foe twice in one turn.
Recently I ran an adventure, that, unlike most of the previous in my 4E campaign, was on a time table (PCs had 1 hour to clear the enemy stronghold before their boss got back, and he's holding hostages). It was a sequence of 3 encounters, with the encounter with their leader as the 4th, without the abilty to take an extended rest. I had two player cancellations at the last minute, but I subbed in a paladin cohort for the Fighter and Warlock. In the encounters they fought intelligently, they lost little resources. When they botched a fight, it cost them. But by the end the warlord and paladin were pretty badly beaten up, the ranger and rogue were fine (The ranger was out of healing surges, but otherwise in good shape)
If the players had not gotten more actions points or uses of daily magic item powers, their poor level 7 characters would not have made it. (Well, they probably would have, but it would have been very close)

 

[DreamChaser]

As with all resource-based systems, there is a trend toward the 5 minute adventuring day. Milestones, at-will, and encounter powers overall are designed to make this less attractive and the alternative (a prolonged adventure) more attractive.

At a milestone, I gain
-- an action point, allowing for some brutally powerful combinations when I use it
-- extra uses of magical items, which allows me to use more than one of my 4 or 5 items' daily power
-- possible increased benefit from other magic items (like rings)

now, depending on the encounters you have, this may not be enough. if a couple of encounters takes you to a milestone but you've used all your dailies and healing surges then there is no incentive powerful enough to make not resting worthwhile.

However, if the charater's fight effectively against level-appropriate encounters, I don't see why 5-7 encounters wouldn't be possible (keeping in mind that skill challenges / hazards are encounters just as much as fights are).

DC

 

[Orcus Porkus]

The short answer is...

... players oftentimes decide to continue the fight because additional Action Points are lost after an extended rest.

Once my players realized that using action points can make all the difference, and I stopped forgetting to hand out action points, this great rule worked wonders.

 

[Regicide]

They encourage 1-fight-per-day. PCs should optimally only fight once per day and use their AP in that fight, then rest to get the AP back.

What promotes players doing multiple fights in a day is that fights aren't particularly risky with or without AP.

With healing "just happening" as the latest Knights of the Dinner Table so aptly lampooned 4E's ridiculous healing surge mechanic, characters aren't really hindered until they're out of surges, so healing surges are really the main limiter on number of fights in a day, although other things like once-per-day powers and magic items will also play a smaller part.

So AP does little to promote, probably more to dissuade multiple per-day fights while healing surges encourage it, at least for the first couple levels. Healing surges "cap" the number of fights per day, and this becomes more of an issue at higher levels where the ability to spend healing surges becomes more common and the number of fights you can do in a day may effectively drop.

 

[essenbee]

They encourage 1-fight-per-day. PCs should optimally only fight once per day and use their AP in that fight, then rest to get the AP back.

What promotes players doing multiple fights in a day is that fights aren't particularly risky with or without AP.

With healing "just happening" as the latest Knights of the Dinner Table so aptly lampooned 4E's ridiculous healing surge mechanic, characters aren't really hindered until they're out of surges, so healing surges are really the main limiter on number of fights in a day, although other things like once-per-day powers and magic items will also play a smaller part.

So AP does little to promote, probably more to dissuade multiple per-day fights while healing surges encourage it, at least for the first couple levels. Healing surges "cap" the number of fights per day, and this becomes more of an issue at higher levels where the ability to spend healing surges becomes more common and the number of fights you can do in a day may effectively drop.

You're describing a serious meta-gaming problem with your group. The game mechanics do not dictate how many fights a party has per day; the scenario does that. If I ever detect such thinking amongst my players whilst they're running through KotS, then that Rift will be opened and the hordes of Orcus will invade the Nentir Vale.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

You're describing a serious meta-gaming problem with your group. The game mechanics do not dictate how many fights a party has per day; the scenario does that. If I ever detect such thinking amongst my players whilst they're running through KotS, then that Rift will be opened and the hordes of Orcus will invade the Nentir Vale.

Not for everyone...in our groups we assume that if you were not bloodied in an encounter your 5 min rest is catching breath fixing armor and weapons. If you were bloodied then yoou are wrapping wounds and checking for broken bones. When you 'run out' of healing surges you just can't take it anymore and are beat to badly (normaly over many fights).
So if after fight A the rogue uses 2 surges to bind his wounds, and pull some arrows out of his armor, then after fight B he uses 3 to wrap a broken rib and a spranged ankle... then after fight C were he spends 1 to 'Cattch his breath' and is thenleft with only one... he will play through fight D as weakened and barely holding on, then after the fight probly collapse saying he can't go on...

 

[Drakona]

How do action points encourage you to take on more encounters?

They don't.

But I think they used to. I can't remember where I read it, but I recall that at first there was no rule against using multiple action points in one encounter. Thus the most impressive 'nova' was to be had by playing two (or four) encounters and then blowing all the accumulated action points in one fight. Quoth (loosely) the developer, "Everyone's turn went 'daily, action point, encounter', which was dull, so we took that option out."

Which was throwing out the baby with the bathwater, if you ask me. I love the idea of building up to a late-day nova.

Noteworthy, though, is that magic item daily uses follow the same mechanic--you gain one per milestone--without the restriction that you can only use one per encounter. So there's still theoretically a late-in-the-day nova effect. I doubt it's very strong, but I don't really know. However, the local Cleric has noted that some of those magic item dailies stack with each other in impressive ways, so I think he may be planning something.