How do i deal with an overwhelming Mage?

[AbdulAlhazred]

Okay sorry about being so vague but I was in the middle of the game when i posted. More information...
This guys combat prowess isn't whats bothering me. I've made him run twice now. Its the fact he's abusing the hell out of mage hand, magic missile, and prestidigitation. He thinks there's a trap? Magic Missile. He thinks something is dangerous to touch, mage hand. If he can't use magic, he shoves another party member into it (and they're okay with this which is even more bothersome.) Outside of combat his Diplomacy, Bluff, and Intimidation bypass just about everything short of an absolute "not happening." He's actually looked at me and said that he will take over the world before the campaign is over.
Call me vindictive, call me over zealous, but i despise people who think they can walking in, stomp all over something I've spent weeks piecing together and converting, and then essentially tell me that he's running the game. I've tried all sorts of things. Big monsters? He runs and trips his allies. Traps? Blasts them or shoves someone else into them. Anti-magic? he refuses to go. The rest of the party is so used to this behavior they just accept it. I'm tired of it.

Well, I'd like to think I'm more diplomatic, but I did basically the same thing with a 4e wizard in a game I was in. Just ran it to the hilt and exploited the heck out of cantrips, rituals, alchemy, consumables, etc. Honestly, if you have some creativity and a knack for seeing ways to use things in off-label ways the 4e wizard/mage is a gold mine. In some ways it is better than the old AD&D magic user. Personally I liked certain rituals and summons best, but there's plenty of ways to do it I'm sure (and mage hand is pretty ridunculus).

 

[Istar]

Yep appeal to his vanity, he is so powerful that enemies with his wish list magic items runs away.

After 5 levels of no magic items, he might tone it down

 

[mneme]

Frankly, I don't think the player is a problem.

The flow of the game is that you suggest problems, the player proposes actions, you rule on them. It seems like you're letting the player get away with murder, and then blaming a creative, confident player for the things you let them get away with. But it's your responsibility to make rulings on the player's actions. If the player is finding your stuff too easy, step it up. Like a trap that can be solved just by throwing damage at it until it stops being a problem -- the wizard isn't the only one who can pull that one off.

If you've made some bad calls (either because you didn't ask what the range on a power was, or because you let the player's solution work when it shouldn't, or because you threw a problem at the party that was just too easy) remember that most traps in 4e aren't solo traps -- they come along with a combat encounter -- then that's your problem to solve, not the player's abuse that you should blame them for.

 

[Quickleaf]

Did you guys recently switch to 4e from 3e or an older version of D&D? I'm just wondering, because some of your examples (especially your encounter example about traps encountered by themselves) don't follow the 4e trend. Nothing wrong with that, 4e is very adaptable to different play styles, but you probably would need to tweak things to get an old school dungeon feel.

Okay sorry about being so vague but I was in the middle of the game when i posted. More information...

This guys combat prowess isn't whats bothering me. I've made him run twice now. Its the fact he's abusing the hell out of mage hand, magic missile, and prestidigitation.

Well, you seem like you identified the problem right off the bat - i would review the rules for those three spells/cantrips. Magic missile and prestidigitation are very hard to abuse. Mage hand can be abused, but if you follow the range, sustain, and weight limits, plus some common sense, it shouldn't be too hard.

[quote He thinks there's a trap? Magic Missile.[/quote]
Uh, what would that do exactly? Even if he guessed to target trap's trigger, would the trap be destroyed by a couple hit points damage? I'm not seeing it. Maybe more info on your particular example would help?

He thinks something is dangerous to touch, mage hand. If he can't use magic, he shoves another party member into it (and they're okay with this which is even more bothersome.)

I don't know what to say about shoving other PCs on to potential traps, but OF COURSE any self-respecting Mage is going to use Mage hand to handle someththing that's potentially trapped! What's wrong with that?

Outside of combat his Diplomacy, Bluff, and Intimidation bypass just about everything short of an absolute "not happening." He's actually looked at me and said that he will take over the world before the campaign is over.

Whoa. Red flag. How the heck are you guys ruling social skills?

Call me vindictive, call me over zealous, but i despise people who think they can walking in, stomp all over something I've spent weeks piecing together and converting, and then essentially tell me that he's running the game. I've tried all sorts of things. Big monsters? He runs and trips his allies. Traps? Blasts them or shoves someone else into them. Anti-magic? he refuses to go. The rest of the party is so used to this behavior they just accept it. I'm tired of it.

Look, I don't know what the dynamic is between you two, but players wreck DM plans all the time, it's part of the game. They kill of beloved villains early, they come up with zany inventive ways to disarm/bypass traps, and they routinely stretch the limits of their alignments/divine patrons. Good DMs roll with the punches and adapt the game in the new direction.

For example: this Mage is an illusionist/enchanter type, right? How about a monster/NPC he performed an extremely effective charm on become infatuated with him, and resurfaces at an inopportune moment (sy, while the PCs are sneaking) to swear their love or admiration for the Mage PC? Now the Mage has a pain in the ass bumbling henchman/fan club to deal with.

 

[Neonchameleon]

Well, I'd like to think I'm more diplomatic, but I did basically the same thing with a 4e wizard in a game I was in. Just ran it to the hilt and exploited the heck out of cantrips, rituals, alchemy, consumables, etc. Honestly, if you have some creativity and a knack for seeing ways to use things in off-label ways the 4e wizard/mage is a gold mine. In some ways it is better than the old AD&D magic user. Personally I liked certain rituals and summons best, but there's plenty of ways to do it I'm sure (and mage hand is pretty ridunculus).

That the 4e mage is - but it's a very different way to the 3e mage. You win by tweaks and slicing in 4e - and much more by "I win" buttons in 3rd. Off label is much more satisfying than on-label. On the other hand you can do some pretty impressive stuff with many other classes - notably the bard, the monk, and the thief. Alchemy and rituals aren't wizard only - and Essentials Druids, Rangers, and Skalds get their own equivalents to cantrips.

(Also Mage Hand At Will was a 900GP item in 3.X, and Gloves of the Hedge Mage are a L4 item in 4e).

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

In terms of dominating social situations with skills, I'd just think realistically about how things work. If the PC's actions would be ridiculous in the real world then they can't work. Make success depend on setting up the situation such that his great social skills/charm magic have a chance of working at all. This setup should of course require skills possessed by the other PCs. In other words force him to become a team player if he wants to succeed. This can easily be the case for other types of situations as well. In fact generally speaking most situations should require at least some teamwork.

 

[jbear]

This issue sounds like it has little to do with the mage class itself.

My sensation is that there are personal issues going on. I very much doubt it is one sided. I don't know either of you, but as we only have one side of the story to go on I'll keep out of that side of things.

What is telling is your response to the players attempt to have NPCs find out information for him. My honest to god reaction to this is, what is the problem with that? That is a huge opportunity for endless amounts of intrigue, plotting, betrayal and broadening of your adventure story lines. Simply handing the money back and saying we couldn't find out anything is a lost opportunity. At the very worst the NPCs have tried to find out information have they not? So they have done their job. So don't hand anything back. You're going to take them on to get your money back? You do realise who they are... right? Well, okay then! Chaos ensues.

But you could do oh so much more with that door the player has opened.

It seems to me perhaps that you feel a little out of your depth as a new DM. I'm guessing you are a new DM to 4e at least as you don't seem to know the rules (I like to know the rules as a DM so I know when and how to bend, break and ignore them completely ... they are, in the end, very good suggestions!), and perhaps this is a part of your feelings of frustration towards the player who obviously does know them and is constantly throwing you curve balls. How you receive those curve balls is the most important part of being a good DM. Enjoy them I say. But make sure when you take them and throw them back they are laced with some good healthy venom. Your players should have a devastating effect on a DMs plans! And the DM should devastate them right back! Not in an adversarial way but in a for tat making sure that the players are pushed to the limits and as such feeling challenged, which is part of the fun.

To me the DM philosophy "Say yes to your players" is the heart of what makes 4e (potentially) such a great version of the game. But a wise DM knows that really that philosophy is very often tempered with a "Yes ... (evil pause) ... but..."

So yes, your ploy to have details of the puzzle revealed via NPCs has worked! But ... But what you don't tell them is the NPCs that the mage paid were all slaughtered when they asked the wrong question to the wrong person and set off a series of alarm bells amongst a very powerful and dangerous hidden society that has a strong interest in ensuring people asking such questions are removed from amongst the living. Of course they tortured these curious fellows and of course they talked before they died. And so they learnt of the mage who paid for those questions to be asked. And now having slipped into the skins of the mage's now dead contacts they make contact and tell them half truths which will lead them closer to their goal, but also into a deadly ambush/trap/both. If that wasn't part of your world/story before ... who cares? It can be. You're the DM.

Magic Missile targets creatures. But if you can target a creature with it then why not something else? That is a decision for the DM to make. Things like that are covered in the DMs Guide. It's something I would definitely allow without even thinking about it. Would it always work? Hell no. It might sometimes if I thought that it would be cool. Sometimes it would do nothing. And sometimes it would land the mage in a whole heap of hurt.

[sblock=For Example]"Yes, something happens when you fire your magic missile at the statue! The seemingly dead stone eyes flare to light, locked immediately on the source of the force that awoke its ire. You feel your will locked into a battle to the death with a furious alien intelligence that is hell bent on your destruction ... in game terms ... you are currently stunned. You are currently in a mini challenge which requires 3 successes before three fails. Each round you remain in the challenge you take 5 psychic dmg. Any fail will be a catalyst to a worsening of the situation. As your mind touches this alien consciousness your mind is swept away to another place. You stand upon the shores of a sea red with blood facing the high jagged cliff. You sense the alien presence looming over you from the waves, reaching towards you. There are three caves in the cliffs. From the cave to the left you hear the screaming of a new born baby. From the middle cave you can hear a group of youths reciting a familiar dirge. From the right cave you can hear the laughter of a woman. A figure stands high upon the cliffs arms raised to the storm that rumbles overhead. When I come back to you I will need for you to tell me what it is that you do. You can ask about one of the features I have described. If you make a hard DC Arcana check you can ask about two. If you make that check and then make a hard Insight check you can ask about three. Then I will need an action from you. If you hesitate it will mean your character is in shock and we will pass on to the next round. (DM takes out sand hour glass and flips it over). Now ... the rest of you see the eyes of the statue flare to life when the magic missile strikes. You also see the mage instantly freeze where he is in a most unnatural, unblinking pose. But you can see the horror in his eyes. What do you do?". [/sblock]

Someone wiser than me on these boards once said that the real tension of a trap does not lie in discovering whether there is one or not. The real tension begins when the trap is discovered. It is then the tension builds as the PCs try and figure out what they need to do about it, or how to by pass it/disarm it without burning themselves to a crisp ... which of course is a great moment to say "And then ..." and of course something else happens which makes the trap truly dangerous so that the PCs are torn between dealing with the trap and this new situation.

So, my suggestion would be to enjoy the challenge. Enjoy the challenge of making it seriously challenging for your players, and especially for your mage.

Edit: I am curious to know how a mage (who will typically have 8 strength and 10 dexterity) managed to shove, trip or push any one into the path of anything.

 

[Istar]

Kill the Mage !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

In terms of dominating social situations with skills, I'd just think realistically about how things work. If the PC's actions would be ridiculous in the real world then they can't work. Make success depend on setting up the situation such that his great social skills/charm magic have a chance of working at all.

This might help the DM: Giant In the Playground Games Diplomacy rules. You can use the +/-10 modifiers in 4e, although if you feel that's too much, cut the bonuses and penalties in half (I wouldn't cut them though).

 

[Ratinyourwalls]

I am having similar problems with an enchanter mage in my campaign. Part of the problem is the rest of the party isn't optimized and he is, but that's only part of the problem. Just looking at the at wills he gets they just put all of the rest of the party's at wills to shame. Psychic Strands? Ugh. Targets everything in a blast 5. BYE MINIONS, oh you survived? Here how about the tough slow dudes are now thrown down a well or something similar while the casters are now in convenient flanking positions... plus unarmored agility lets him have tanky AC.

I dunno maybe that's how wizards are supposed to work but he is just so far ahead of everyone else's capabilities at level four that I feel I'm having to throw in extra monsters that almost kill everyone else just to threaten him.

What am I doing wrong here?