How do I get better tactics from my players?

[Dr. Strangemonkey]

As bizarre a complaint as this may sound...

...I need my players to get more munchkin. They're a wonderful group, great role-players, and good at building individual characters. But they are distinctly poor at playing out the 'professional' aspect of their characters.

From my perspective I need them to do this for two reasons:

a.) They are professional/experienced adventurers and if they don't start acting like it, someone in the world is going to notice and I will, in good conscience, have to make them suffer.

b.) I'm tired of pulling punches and dropping them hints. I'm certainly not going to make the villains any less evil, but I don't want to loose my players by killing them off all the time.

So far the problem exists on many levels ranging from there are no divine spell casters, which is forgivable, to there are no buff spells being used, which is not forgivable. I've tried everything from showing the players how the villains are working when they are getting whomped to instituting a set of 'story' points so they can get hints from me on how to deal with a situation. Last time they had to use one of the points to be told they should all be using the haste potions I dropped for them earlier in the dungeon.

Nothings really worked well enough to do more than keep them alive, and I'm getting frustrated enough to consider having the two intelligent magical items they picked up try to train them.

Anyone have advice on how to change the party's behaviour or how to play a magical item NPC?

 

[Xarlen]

I know exactly how you feel. The wizard in the group, despite his 'schooling intelligence' focuses on Fireballing and Magic Missiling... and He's an illusionist!

No dispels, no buffs, no nothing. It's aggravating.

I've just now gotten the cleric to do it.

 

[Dr. Strangemonkey]

It really frustrates me that a party of players who are very good at constructing balanced and strong characters could be making mistakes like not searching for traps all the time or putting up good security around their lair.

That and their weakness at party tacticals. One of them made this awe-inspiring support character and then does nothing but attack the enemy directly. I need help.

 

[Oni]

I would suggest no more pulling punches. Might sound a little harsh, but if they get curb stomped a few times they'll play smarter (well that is my theory anyway).

 

[Celebrim]

Well, that isn't as unusual of a complaint as you might think. Let me ask you a question, 'Did they all start RPing post 2nd edition?' The reason I ask is I'v e noticed a distinct trend among 2nd edition players to rely far too heavily on brute force, spells, and magic items. A quick reading of 2nd edition Forgotten Realms adventures that they cut thier teeth on provides the answer.

There are out there players who look at a set of rules and immediately figure out how to break them, create smack downs, and what not.

But for the most part, even those players get really skilled at 'dungeon crawling' by actually doing it. I've had horrible problems with 2nd & 3rd edition players not using teamwork, not knowing the basics of handling dungeon hazards like green slime, not knowing when to be cautious, and not knowing how to respond to situations in general. Most of them doesn't seem to understand how useful a 10' pole or other probing object can be. The result is that it is often hard to guess how tough of a challenge to throw at the party. Too easy of a challenge, and they get bored. But something I would consider a normal challenge for my old group, ends up killing half the party. Even 3rd edition seems to encourage some poor dungeoneering skills. For instance, I've also learned that if I hide something with a mechanic like, 'Search DC 30, but the difficulty drops to 10 if the party specifically states they move the concealing object' , that it goes unoticed 90% of the time EVEN when the party knows something is hidden somewhere in the dungeon complex and is trying to find it. And forget advanced dungeoneering skills like bartering, bribery, and so forth.

The only answer I can give you is either let one of them DM, and show the players how to act, or sit them down and OOC talk to them about how to 'Dungeoneer'.

 

[Dr. Strangemonkey]

Thanks for the post Celebrim. It's good to know I'm not alone.

My party is pretty various. Some of them are from 2e, one's from warhammer, and a few are fairly new to the game.

Still I've seen exactly what you are describing. I don't know if anyone in this party even has 50 feet of rope.

They learned about pudding's though. Oh yes, they learned and that's when I learned to pull punches.

Now they are so traumatized by puddings that in the last adventure they defeated a CR 17 demon and then ran screaming from the rumor of a pudding.

Maybe I am too worried about pulling punches. In the last combat several characters went over or close to the -10 multiple times, it was a tough fight but tacticals would have prevented most of this, and I ended up discovering various ways to save them as I did not want to wait for them to roll up new characters in the next session.

Fortunately one of the 3e players, nod to Celebrim, had gone out and bought some of those continue operating until end of combat potions and kept making people drink them.

That was nice, but in some ways more frustrating because a simpler solution would have worked just as well. They are good enough role-players that they do a decent job on bribery, interrogation, and other advanced concepts. In fact, they skipped most of this dungeon by following the water supply into the leader's oppulent bathroom.

They're getting a new employer and I was wondering if anyone had any thought on the advisability of putting a party through a training session?

Maybe set up a really advanced 'danger room' style illusion spell and have a trainer run overwatch? I wouldn't want to do it unless it could be made uncheesy.

 

[nameless]

Here are some things I've done in the past involving buffing spells and other such tactics:

1. Have the enemies expect buffing spells. Throw dispel magics on the party even when they have no spells running. Invisibility Purges against rooms with no invisible opponents. It's plausible that enemies will waste time on this, which gives the players an advantage without pulling punches.

2. Introduce situations where the party has to pick on one or two members to go in alone, on account of space or enviroment (i.e. only one radiation suit). If they don't buff the crap out of the lone fighter, then they may be hopeless.

3. Introduce NPC allies who ask for buffs. It's not out of the question for someone to want GMW on his weapons, magic vestment on his armor, Bull's Strength, Cat's Grace, or See Invisibility.

4. Have NPC allies who cast buffs. If the party sees how much more effective they become, they may buff themselves as well.

5. The PCs can witness an NPC discussing battle plans. As part of those plans, perhaps magic and magic items will play a role. If they see this is "tactics done right" maybe they'll adopt some of them.

 

[Ron]

I once had a problem like this that I overcame by humiliating the party. I set up an encounter with a very organized group of orcs with superior command and intelligence. They watched the party, listed their strengths and weakness and set up a trap. The party, consisted of 7th to 10th level 1st edition AD&D characters, fell right into it. By good use of the environment, superior tactics, and coordinated team work, the common orcs defeated the party, capturing them all.

They were pissed off but they learned from this encounters. After being ramsoned from the orcs, they actually sit down and discussed some tactics and became a much more competent party.

 

[Corinth]

I'm having this problem with my group. Two of them never played any D&D edition before. Two of them played AD&D1e, but never very well and not for a long time.

This group has no cleric, doesn't act as a unit and doesn't play up to their characters' potential whatsoever. Only one of the PCs bothers to search for anything, and he's trying to use Chaotic Neutral to justify his character's more questionable actions. They nearly gotten wiped out twice in as many sessions because the PCs have no unit cohesion, don't parley/bargain/etc. with NPCs, don't bother to think ahead or otherwise behave as if their PCs actually are trained adventurers.

They won't listen to my post-mortem critiques either. It's time to take the gloves off (so far I've fudged a little here and there to keep 'em alive); if they don't shape up, then the PCs will end up getting slaughtered. They just won't learn otherwise.

 

[seasong]

Yullick's Dungeon

Yullick hires a lot of adventurers, but he has long since learned that many (as much as 30-40%) are not as experienced as they claim, or have experience in the wrong areas. Since Yullick needs powerful, expendable people for in particular areas, he's set up a training dungeon, which he then lends (free of charge) to those who wish to train in it. Seasoned adventurers are allowed to teach classes (and charge for it), and Yullick occasionally awards certifications for those who are particularly good at teaching.

He then simply requires that adventurers complete one full course, taught by a certified teacher, before he'll hire them. Yullick's costs are minimal - minor upkeep on the dungeon, and insurance - and it saves him a great deal of money by weeding out the incompetents.

The dungeon itself is fairly simple: a 100' corridor of stone, with rooms on either side, a few lever-activated pits (water filled), and a storage room with lengths of hair-thin wire and other "fake trap" equipment. The rest adventurers have to bring with them, although the certified teachers have slowly built up a stock of additional items, from slimes (which they maintain and grow in a nearby building) to orc costumes and padded weapons.

Most of the certified teachers charge 10-15 GP per day of instruction, and a course is usually 3-10 days. The teachers typically teach teamwork, "crawl advancement" (marching order, checking traps, efficient door opening), and specific tactics for the most common dungeon dwellers.

Yullick (or whoever you have hiring them in your campaign) is in need of adventurers, but everyone he prefers to hire is gone. So he's opened up the dungeon, and is paying for the most promising looking ones to go through the course with some of the better teachers. This is a one time deal (they'll have to pay for courses themselves in future), but right now he's desparate.