How Do Metamagic Rods Work For Preparation Spellcasters?

[billd91]

I agree with Thanee. Intent is sometimes an important aspect of the rules. I think in this case, the intent is clear that a spellcaster is meant to get no more benefit from a rod than three spells worth. A truly literal interpretation seems to allow more than three spells per day if you count today and previous days of preparation, but if you consider intent, this is obviously unreasonable. Why make a limit if it can easily be circumvented by preparing 3 spells a day for a whole week to prepare all your spells before you go adventuring?

<snip>
However, I might be swayed if Skip Williams was the author of that particular FAQ entry, seeing how he had a hand in the 3.5 DMG and he probably play-tested the rules (in which case I assume he was basing his answer on the way they used them in play-test). But there have been several FAQ authors over the years...

I agree that intent is sometimes an important aspect, but it's not always clear what that intent is. With the metamagic rods, since there is clearly a limit to the number of times it may be used per day, what seems the most likely intent? Did the designers intend to introduce the idea of spells that, once prepared with metamagic, will degrade or can be degraded by the spell caster? Or did they intend to allow a preparation caster to skip the need to assign the metamagic modification at prep time and cast a spell modified via the rod spontaneously?
There's no clear answer to those questions. I strongly believe the latter is easier to deal with, easier to conceptualize, and is more likely the author's intent.

As far as I know, there have been 2 FAQ authors in recent years. Skip and Andy. Both should have some reasonable authority over what was meant by the rules.

 

[moritheil]

Another victory for the debate necromancers! May the argument continue into perpetuity!

(One of the old threads on this topic yielded a quote to the effect that one cannot use the rules of the English language to parse rules text, because that will somehow alter the rules and make them unviable. I kid you not.)

 

[airwalkrr]

But, this is house rules.

None of what you wrote here is written within the item.

In Hypersmurf's defense, what he said is exactly within the item, particularly the things he quoted. The crucial phrases to Hypersmurf's position are:

-"Possession of a metamagic rod does not confer the associated feat on the owner, only the ability to use the given feat a specified number of times per day."
-"A sorcerer must still...just as if using a metamagic feat he possesses."
-"The wielder can cast up to three spells per day...as though using the...feat."

So logically:

1. A character with the rod can effective "use" the metamagic feat the rod confers.
2. A character can use a metamagic rod three times per day.
3. A character can cast up to (i.e. no more than) three spells per day that use the metamagic.

A literal interpretation therefore posits:

1. To "use" a metamagic feat involves the normal procedure for using the feat (since we are given no indication otherwise without the FAQ; note the item never states that the rod allows application of the feat spontaneously).
2. The only exceptions to the normal procedure are that which the item states.
3. The exceptions that the item states are:
a) A character can use the metamagic rod three times per day.
b) A character can cast up three spells per day that use the metamagic.

It is a perfectly justifiable, reasonable, and logical interpretation of the rules. Your point merely boils down to the fact that it disagrees with the FAQ. Now if Skip Williams wrote the FAQ entry in question, then I would agree that intent is just as he wrote it (in the FAQ). But if that is the case then metamagic rods are imprecisely worded, as a literal interpretation of them leads to Hypersmurf's position.

 

[Twowolves]

You can 'use the feat a specified number of times per day'. In addition, each of the rods states 'The wielder can cast up to three spells per day that are XXXed...'

So, we know that:
a/ A wizard uses a metamagic feat at preparation time.
b/ A wizard can use the (say) Enlarge Spell feat a specified number of times per day.
c/ He can cast up to three spells per day that are Enlarged.
d/ The only number that appears in the description is 'three'.

So, since we know that the number of times he can use the feat each day is 'specified', and the only number in the description is three, we must assume that the number of times he can use the feat each day is three.

Since we know that wizards use metamagic feats at preparation time, he must use the feat three times each day at preparation time.

Now, in theory, he might use the feat three times each day at preparation time several days in a row, affecting (say) nine of his spells.

But we also know that he can cast up to three spells per day that are Enlarged... so if he casts three of those nine, he can't cast the other six in the same day.

I'm quite happy to rule that using the rod on a second day to prepare more Enlarged spells will remove the Enlarge from older spells prepared the day before, for example, keeping the number of spells prepared with the rod's feat to no more than three at any given time; it seems to me to enforce the written restrictions while reducing headaches, and keeping with my reading of the spirit of the item.

-Hyp.

So, you are quite happy to rule that a spell once prepared as modified by a metamagic feat can be cast without the metamagic modification? Even though there is absolutely no precedent for such a ruling anywhere in the RAW? Or are you saying that a prepared spell caster can prep 3 spells per day, each day, for a week, but after he casts three of the spells, he somehow totally loses access to all the other spells he prepped with the rod?? Effectively having spells memorized, but no access to them? Or are you saying that once 3 spells are prepared with the rod, that the rod can then pass to someone else but is then useless until the first three modified spells prepped by the previous owner of the rod are cast?

I also find it telling how many people, in previous threads on this subject, went around and around against the "modified at casting" ruling, but now seemingly (or at least, now admit to) support this ruling.

 

[Hypersmurf]

So, you are quite happy to rule that a spell once prepared as modified by a metamagic feat can be cast without the metamagic modification? Even though there is absolutely no precedent for such a ruling anywhere in the RAW? Or are you saying that a prepared spell caster can prep 3 spells per day, each day, for a week, but after he casts three of the spells, he somehow totally loses access to all the other spells he prepped with the rod?? Effectively having spells memorized, but no access to them?

I said that as written, he could only cast three spells that are Enlarged. I'm not certain whether modified spells in excess of that would be castable (though not Enlarged), or non-castable... which is why I said that my personal ruling would be to forbid more than three spells to be prepared in modified form at any given time.

Or are you saying that once 3 spells are prepared with the rod, that the rod can then pass to someone else but is then useless until the first three modified spells prepped by the previous owner of the rod are cast?

I think that even if the rod is used to prepare spells in modified form, you can't cast spells that are thus Enlarged unless you are the wielder of the rod. So while the rod confers the ability to use the feat (which, for a wizard, is done at preparation time), it is also required to have the rod in hand when the spell so prepared is cast; it is the wielder who can cast spells that are Enlarged.

So if you prepare spells with the rod and then pass it on to someone else, you won't see the benefits of that preparation.

-Hyp.

 

[Infiniti2000]

So if you prepare spells with the rod and then pass it on to someone else, you won't see the benefits of that preparation.

So, you have to have the rod in hand when you are activating it and even when you are not? I don't buy that as a valid interpretation at all.

b) A character can cast up three spells per day that use the metamagic.

An interesting side point to this is that it doesn't impose the limit on just the rod in question. So, if you have two such rods, or the actual feat plus a rod of that feat, you still can't use any combination of them more than 3/day.

I think the valid rules interpretation of use-activated is at preparation time, but that gives us so many headaches that it is not the valid (i.e. appropriate) one. Personally, I think the best option (house rule) is to apply it on the fly for everyone and not increase casting time for spontaneous spells.

 

[Hypersmurf]

So, you have to have the rod in hand when you are activating it and even when you are not? I don't buy that as a valid interpretation at all.

You have to use the rod to use the feat (and the rules for using the feat are found in the PHB).

You have to be the wielder of the rod to cast a spell that is [Metamagic Feat]ed.

-Hyp.

 

[Infiniti2000]

You have to use the rod to use the feat (and the rules for using the feat are found in the PHB).

Agreed.

You have to be the wielder of the rod to cast a spell that is [Metamagic Feat]ed.

Disagree. I don't see the text to support this. I do see (e.g.):

"The wielder can cast up to three spells per day that are empowered as though using the Empower Spell feat."

But interpreting it the way you're attempting is conflating the usage of the item. It's either use-activated or not. What you're now saying, however, is that it's use-activated twice, once as a normal feat and once as a ...?

 

[RainOfSteel]

The only thing, that can be concluded from the rules text is, that wizards have to use the feat usage granted by the rod, just like their normal feat usage, that is, during preparation. How this exactly works is not exactly detailed.

That is not the only thing that can be concluded. The rules say "3 times per day". It is clear that these uses may be called upon at any time of the day. Why is it clear? Because there is no other restriction listed.

"3 times per day" means exactly the same thing for metamagic rods that it does for any other magical item that has a per-day usage. Metamagic rods are not different.

Obviously, when you have to use the rods during preparation, [...]

Except that it is not stated that the rods must be used during spell preparation.

[...] you won't be able to have more than three spells prepared this way (from a single rod) at any time.

If a metamagic rod is used at spell preparation (I do not say that this is true), and since not all spells are re-memorized at each spell preparation, and since there is nothing written anywhere about prepared spells with metamagic feats applied losing their "metamagically enhanced" status later on, then we can only conclude that a spellcaster could eventually rack up every available spell slot with a metamagic feat applied by adding three more such applications per day.

Specifying that such a mechanic exists--memorized spells losing their applied metamagic feat after one day in order to prevent a spellcaster from racking up all spells as metamagically enhanced, is inventing a mechanic to support a situation that doesn't exist in the first place. It also needlessly complicates the handling of the entire usage of metamagic rods. Such a mechanic (metamagic enchancement fading) or a restriction (only usable at spell preparation) is, to me, obviously not what metamagic rods are for.

It's a simple logical conclusion [...]

I can only view it as having increased complexity. It is logical only when accepting the existence of rules not listed in the description of metamagic rods.

EDIT------------------------------

I would like to point out the rules for metamagic rods discuss combining the wielder's own metamagic feats with that of the rod.

In this description, it says (bold emphasis mine):

In this case, only the feats possessed by the wielder adjust the spell slot of the spell being cast

There it is, crystal clear. "[...] the spell being cast."

This is RAW that the rod is used on spells as they are being cast.

 

[airwalkrr]

In this description, it says (bold emphasis mine):
There it is, crystal clear. "[...] the spell being cast."

This is RAW that the rod is used on spells as they are being cast.

That is not what the RAW says. That is what you infer the RAW suggests. There is a world of difference. This statement is talking about two things simultaneously (using a rod and using a metamagic feat) and simply uses the phrase "spell being cast" as a reference, not a parameter. If you assume it is a parameter, then that means wizards and clerics apply metamagic feats as the spell is being cast, but we all know that is not the case.