How Do Metamagic Rods Work For Preparation Spellcasters?
- Thread starter airwalkrr
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Imagicka
Explorer
Greetings...
Well, please correct me if I'm wrong... but...
Spontaneous spell-casters are required to spend extra time to apply a metamagic effect to a spell. That somehow, having a metamagic rod should then allow them not only apply the effect...but also not have to spend the whole round casting the spell? Effectively speeding up the casting time (or I should say not slowing down the casting time) AND giving the metamagic benefit?
So, that's two benefits for the spontaneous spell caster, where as the non-spontaneous spell caster only gets one benefit... the metamagic effect alone.
So... why should sorcerers and bards get a double benefit, where the wizard and others only get the singular benefit?
Well, please correct me if I'm wrong... but...
Spontaneous spell-casters are required to spend extra time to apply a metamagic effect to a spell. That somehow, having a metamagic rod should then allow them not only apply the effect...but also not have to spend the whole round casting the spell? Effectively speeding up the casting time (or I should say not slowing down the casting time) AND giving the metamagic benefit?
So, that's two benefits for the spontaneous spell caster, where as the non-spontaneous spell caster only gets one benefit... the metamagic effect alone.
So... why should sorcerers and bards get a double benefit, where the wizard and others only get the singular benefit?
Patryn of Elvenshae
First Post
There's really two questions here:
1. How do the rules say that the rods work? When answering this question (and the poll), I agree with Thanee and Hypersmurf. Prepared casters use the rod at preparation time.
2. How do I play it in my games? In my games, metamagic rods are used by all casters at cast time, and sorcerors (etc.) do not need to take any extra time to cast spells so enhanced.
1. How do the rules say that the rods work? When answering this question (and the poll), I agree with Thanee and Hypersmurf. Prepared casters use the rod at preparation time.
2. How do I play it in my games? In my games, metamagic rods are used by all casters at cast time, and sorcerors (etc.) do not need to take any extra time to cast spells so enhanced.
glass
(he, him)
Sorcerers don't get double benefit. They get to apply metamagic feats on the fly (which they can do anyway) and they pay the usual price for it. Per the FAQ, wizards also get to apply metamagic on the fly (which they can'tnormally do), but they don't pay anything for it. Thus, if anyone gets double benefit it is wizards (and other preparing casters).Imagicka said:
Fortunately, IMO, the RAW is much more sensible.
glass.
Infiniti2000
First Post
Not per the OP, there isn't: "Note this isn't a discussion of the way it ought to be, just your opinion on what the RAW says (or implies as may be the case)."Patryn of Elvenshae said:
I don't agree because no matter what, prepared spellcasters get a double benefit. I don't relish the idea of prepared spellcasters that have some time to plan using a single rod to (e.g.) empower every single spell they own. That's a benefit, per RAW, that "spontaneous" casters will never get.glass said:
Patryn of Elvenshae
First Post
Infiniti2000 said:
I don't think everyone necessarily read that.
Infiniti2000
First Post
On that, we agree.Patryn of Elvenshae said:
Infiniti2000
First Post
Easy. Three yesterday, three today, three tomorrow, . . .glass said:
This is an interesting balance question either way you rule it. I think the intent was for spontaneous use, but I think RAW is for non-spontaneous use for prepared casters.
Balance-wise, let's look at both.
First, all interpretations give the advantage of not increasing the spell level and this advantage is just as good for prepared casters as for spontaneous casters. But, what other advantages does each interpretation have:
1) During Casting. Advantage Prepared Casters. They get the additional advantage that they get to do spontaneous metamagic. Spontaneous casters already had this benefit.
2) During Preparation. Advantage Unknown. Possibly an advantage for Prepared Casters or possibly a limitation for Prepared Casters: DM dependent. They get to cast 3 spells per day this way, but there is no limit to how many total spells they can prepare this way (by RAW). Presumably, the number per day prepared is the same as the number per day cast (RAW does not explicitly state this), in other words 3 per day cast and 3 per day prepared. However, over a long period of time, they could prepare all of their spells with the rod and either a) pick and choose at casting time which spell to metamagic (effectively making it on the fly and an advantage) or b) the first three they cast that were prepared as metamagic are metamagic, however, the DM then has to either allow additional metamagic prepared spells to be cast as non-metamatic (a limitation because the metamagic had to be used on the first 3 cast and not on any other), or the caster cannot cast those additional metamage spells at all (also a limitation) since the rod limits it to 3 cast per day and the 50 spells were already prepared as metamagic.
If one literally rules like Hyp and Thanee that it is during preparation, then metamagic rods are not well defined for prepared casters. There is no language that the metamagic from the rod disappears after 24 hours or some such, so literally one is almost forced to interpret (without additional house rules) that if it is at preparation time, then a caster can have 50 such prepared spells. Reading it literally for preparation time and then not reading it literally for preparation (times per day) is not consistent. Either one rules per literal RAW, or one does not. But, this results in adjudication issues.
Either way (#1 or #2 above), the item might have an additional advantage for prepared casters. But, there is nothing wrong with that. Just like a Ring of Wizardry cannot be used by a Cleric, there is nothing wrong with an item that is only useable by some classes or even is more worthwhile for some classes than others.
But Hyp's literal interpretation (if extended to the logical conclusion) can potentially result in adjudication issues where each DM rules something different.
Plus, the language of the item has an implication for during casting time as well:
The word casting in this sentence can be interpreted as referring back to use-activated for all uses of the Rod. It is not required to interpret it as Thanee did earlier in the thread.
Finally, WotC repeatedly has stated that during casting time is the intent. Since that is what WotC is stating and that has no adjudication issues, the "at preparation time" interpretation is more literal, but not WotC intent and not as clear.
A middle ground of "during preparation" but limited to 3 total spells prepared is more balanced, but that is not what RAW or WotC states.
Balance-wise, let's look at both.
First, all interpretations give the advantage of not increasing the spell level and this advantage is just as good for prepared casters as for spontaneous casters. But, what other advantages does each interpretation have:
1) During Casting. Advantage Prepared Casters. They get the additional advantage that they get to do spontaneous metamagic. Spontaneous casters already had this benefit.
2) During Preparation. Advantage Unknown. Possibly an advantage for Prepared Casters or possibly a limitation for Prepared Casters: DM dependent. They get to cast 3 spells per day this way, but there is no limit to how many total spells they can prepare this way (by RAW). Presumably, the number per day prepared is the same as the number per day cast (RAW does not explicitly state this), in other words 3 per day cast and 3 per day prepared. However, over a long period of time, they could prepare all of their spells with the rod and either a) pick and choose at casting time which spell to metamagic (effectively making it on the fly and an advantage) or b) the first three they cast that were prepared as metamagic are metamagic, however, the DM then has to either allow additional metamagic prepared spells to be cast as non-metamatic (a limitation because the metamagic had to be used on the first 3 cast and not on any other), or the caster cannot cast those additional metamage spells at all (also a limitation) since the rod limits it to 3 cast per day and the 50 spells were already prepared as metamagic.
If one literally rules like Hyp and Thanee that it is during preparation, then metamagic rods are not well defined for prepared casters. There is no language that the metamagic from the rod disappears after 24 hours or some such, so literally one is almost forced to interpret (without additional house rules) that if it is at preparation time, then a caster can have 50 such prepared spells. Reading it literally for preparation time and then not reading it literally for preparation (times per day) is not consistent. Either one rules per literal RAW, or one does not. But, this results in adjudication issues.
Either way (#1 or #2 above), the item might have an additional advantage for prepared casters. But, there is nothing wrong with that. Just like a Ring of Wizardry cannot be used by a Cleric, there is nothing wrong with an item that is only useable by some classes or even is more worthwhile for some classes than others.
But Hyp's literal interpretation (if extended to the logical conclusion) can potentially result in adjudication issues where each DM rules something different.
Plus, the language of the item has an implication for during casting time as well:
The word casting in this sentence can be interpreted as referring back to use-activated for all uses of the Rod. It is not required to interpret it as Thanee did earlier in the thread.
Finally, WotC repeatedly has stated that during casting time is the intent. Since that is what WotC is stating and that has no adjudication issues, the "at preparation time" interpretation is more literal, but not WotC intent and not as clear.
A middle ground of "during preparation" but limited to 3 total spells prepared is more balanced, but that is not what RAW or WotC states.
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