How do Psions compare to arcane casters?

Kunimatyu · Aug 2, 2006

Out of curiousity, what's the debate about Energy Missile? Was it one of the powers erattaed in Complete Psionic?

Psion · Aug 2, 2006

Kunimatyu said:
Out of curiousity, what's the debate about Energy Missile? Was it one of the powers erattaed in Complete Psionic?

The debate:

Energy missile was a very flexible power to begin with. For a level less than a fireball, you get an effect that is targetable, which lets you avoid the common tactical conundrums of attacking multiple enemies with your spell/power when you allies charge into melee.

Further, in the original version, you could target attended objects, which is a bit potent against armed humanoid targets.

Further, it was one of the many powers that were given, for inexplicable reasons, a save DC that progresses twice as fast as other powers or spell (i.e., on par with +1 DC/level, instead of 1/2 level.)

This last point was errata'd in the complete psionic book, along with a bunch of other powers with the same typographical blunder. The power is much more tolerable now (if still potent.)

There are some psionics fans out there who refused to accept that this doubling the rate of DC progression made the ability was overpowered. They have been crafting arguments defending these powers for so long, and are so invested in this beleif, that they actually beleive that the errata issued in Complete Psionics is incorrect.

I, of course, firmly disagree with those folks and don't think they have a leg to stand on.

I think if you use the errata'd powers, and excercise the 4 encounters per day guideline set forth in the DMG, you should be fine using psionics in your game.

Thanee · Aug 2, 2006

1) Energy Missile's DC scales faster than it should (+1 per 1 PP augmentation, whereas it should be +1 per 2 PP) - this part was errataed at least (not in the errata, of course, only in Complete Psionics).

2) It's a 2nd-level power, which can target up to five (though two to three is realistic) opponents for full (= manifester level) damage, and has selective targeting (no chance to hit allies, no attack roll). It even has medium range.

It's completely over the top. This is clearly a much higher level effect, I would put it at 4th level (and bump up damage to 7d6 base then, of course), then it would be alright (selective targeting is very powerful, as it can be used to fire into melee with no problems at all). For 2nd level it should be single target with an augmenation for multiple targets, so there is a downside to hitting multiple foes with it (either more damage or more targets).

Bye
Thanee

drothgery · Aug 2, 2006

Thanee said:
Some people say, that Psions have the 'disadvantage' of being able to squeeze out and thus expend their PP quickly... now, I don't know... how can this be a disadvantage? Being able to generate more effect in shorter time is bad? That's kinda like saying a 9th-level spell is worse than a 1st-level spell, since it costs more (effectively) to cast it.

If you cannot restrain yourself, that's your fault, not the one of the class.

It's not a disadvantage that they can blow through their power points quickly. It's a disadvantage that they don't have much choice about doing so (or coming close to doing so) against anything that's a significant threat if they want to contribute in any real way.

Thanee · Aug 2, 2006

That's surely not so. Psions can manifest plenty powers at a lower than their maximum level, that will have useful and appropriate effects for their level. They don't need to manifest their damaging powers (which are probably some of the most level-dependant powers) at full level, since they deal more damage than comparable spells on average, for example, and that's without taking resistances into account (just using cold or fire damage).

Some powers, of course, pretty much need to be augmented to the max to be useful.

Spellcasters cannot cast spells at their full level all day long either. In fact, when they only use their fully effective spells (the highest 2 spell levels usually, since the spells below that usually have a lower cap and thus also cannot make use of their full caster level), they run out of those really, really quick (even quicker than Psions run out of power points).

At about 10th level, for example, a Magic Missile just isn't that great anymore. It's still good, though. Let the Psion manifest some power for 3-5 PP and there's also a decent effect, not the best they can do, but still good (easily better than the Magic Missile). At that level they have something like ~120 PP total, so they can do that *a lot*.

Even if they go full power all the time, they have 12 powers per day, which is not that few. 3 per encounter, if you go by the 4 encounters per day guideline.

Bye
Thanee

thorian · Aug 2, 2006

Psions present fewer balance problems than many other classes. They are less problematic than Clerics, Druids and Wizards (and now Sorcerers with the variant from PH2).

drothgery · Aug 2, 2006

Thanee said:
That's surely not so. Psions can manifest plenty powers at a lower than their maximum level, that will have useful and appropriate effects for their level. They don't need to manifest their damaging powers (which are probably some of the most level-dependant powers) at full level, since they deal more damage than comparable spells on average, for example, and that's without taking resistances into account (just using cold or fire damage).

There's not much doubt that psions are better than wizards, psions, sorcerers, and warmages at direct damage (and that it's kind of odd that it's the psion's best schtick). But direct damage really isn't the greatest tactic for a caster (it's a fun one, but not an effecient one) -- a figher or barbarian can usually deal damage just as effectively if not more so, and psions aren't as good at most other stuff (especially with astral constructs toned down).

Thanee · Aug 3, 2006

drothgery said:
There's not much doubt that psions are better than wizards, psions, sorcerers, and warmages at direct damage (and that it's kind of odd that it's the psion's best schtick).

Yeah, that's surely odd.

But direct damage really isn't the greatest tactic for a caster (it's a fun one, but not an effecient one) -- a figher or barbarian can usually deal damage just as effectively if not more so, and psions aren't as good at most other stuff (especially with astral constructs toned down).

It was just a random example, since damaging spells usually need to be at high power to be good (mostly because dealing damage is something, that everyone can do in some fashion; and warrior classes are quite good at it).

Bye
Thanee