How do you determine Shop Inventory?

[Nifft]

If finding stuff is to be restricted, I prefer some kind of abstract availability check to determine success before describing the shopping expedition. If they fail, there is no appropriate shop open that day, or the goods aren't the sort of thing you find in shops.

If you check availability after you let them into the store, you'll risk playing out something like this:
[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B3KBuQHHKx0]YouTube - The Cheese Shop sketch, Monty Python[/ame]

Cheers, -- N

 

[haakon1]

Further, I think that determining the inventory of a magic item shop is a good way to screw over your characters. Not being able to buy what you want isn't fun, and not being able to buy what you need isn't nice.

So by doing a magic shop with an inventory, I "screw over" my players, have an unfun game, and am being not nice to my players? Could you turn down the wrongbadfun a wee bit?

My reason for being detailed on the magic shop is that my focus is on story. By answering questions like: how does it function economically/make a profit and why isn't it robbed, I think I add to the "suspension of disbelief" in my campaign. By having specific items -- including stuff PC's have sold to it -- I use it to connect the different parties and players that have played in my campaign. And it's just plain interesting to see if the discards from one party get picked up by another.

I don't even think determining inventory even makes a game more realistic:
Once you start to raise the question at all, you start to get questions like, "How do you make a living selling magic items?" Certainly, you can't sell what amounts to a bazooka in any sized city or town unless you're dealing with the black market unless you happen to have a very high level of magic in your setting.

The bazooka analogy is a good starting point to think through these issues (if you want to in running a campaign). How does a bazooka -- or the modern version, the RPG (rocket propelled grenade), get sold?

1) In places like Peshawar, they are sold by arms dealers in a bazaar, to and from tribal militias, terrorists, and people who want to protect themselves from the latter. It's allowed because it's protected by the local tribes and payola to local authorities, and serves all sides. Similar things happen with AK-47's in more countries. This isn't all that different from a Points of Light setting, where anarchy and deathly threats surround most settlements.

2) There are secretive high volume, high end international illegal arms dealers. See the movie "Lord of War" for a dramatization of this trade. It's done because there's money in it, lots of money, selling unneeded arms to people with gems, drugs, or other resources, and the desire to sieze more of them.

3) Official business. Licensed arms manufacturers/dealers selling to the government and its friends -- but not it's enemies.

The main magic shop in my campaign is most like #3, though the players might not have precisely figured that out yet.

Even so, you'd have to sell them periodically to make a living.

Right, that or provide services. IMC, both magic shops do Identify spells and spell components too. And their inventory has a certain amount of turnover, particulary for the Fast Moving Consumer Goods of a magic shop -- cure potions and low level scrolls.

And how was an NPC able to get such a large investment to pay for his magic item shop? That's very expensive, and not in the realm of most fantasy random Joes, it must be owned by a nobleman or something

Where the capital comes from is another good question in designing a magic shop.

My answer to this is that the limited capital of the shop DOESN'T belong to the sorcerer who runs it -- it belongs to the mage's guild, who own the guild monopoly on the trade, because of their cooperation with the government.

Everyday craftsmen would have a guild or union that butts up with magic users, and the government may have price controls in place in order to protect jobs (as was the case in England during such a time) and outlaw some magic users' jobs.

Guilds, governments, monopolies -- all good medieval thoughts. But not a reason NOT to think about this stuff.

This would make for an awfully complicated game.

Nod. I think logical, deeply immersive worlds where this sort of thing has been thought through and makes sense makes for fun gaming, rather than bad gaming. If the players discover you've thought deeply about the magic shop, they may wonder about the reasons behind a lot of other things, which makes the game more exciting -- if they start asking "but WHY are the orcs here"/"how come the magic shop doesn't get robbed" instead of just assuming everything is "because I said so", things get more immersive and interesting, in my opinion.

Your mileage may vary.

 

[Jdvn1]

So by doing a magic shop with an inventory, I "screw over" my players, have an unfun game, and am being not nice to my players? Could you turn down the wrongbadfun a wee bit?

Like I said, "I think." I'm entitled to my opinion, right?

My reason for being detailed on the magic shop is that my focus is on story. By answering questions like: how does it function economically/make a profit and why isn't it robbed, I think I add to the "suspension of disbelief" in my campaign. By having specific items -- including stuff PC's have sold to it -- I use it to connect the different parties and players that have played in my campaign. And it's just plain interesting to see if the discards from one party get picked up by another.

I have never seen such questions answered satisfactorily, killing suspension of disbelief for me. If your players are happy with your answers, that's great. Knowing much more about economics than most, I'm likely a bit pickier than most (and, I encourage my players to ask such questions too).

The bazooka analogy is a good starting point to think through these issues (if you want to in running a campaign). How does a bazooka -- or the modern version, the RPG (rocket propelled grenade), get sold?

1) In places like Peshawar, they are sold by arms dealers in a bazaar, to and from tribal militias, terrorists, and people who want to protect themselves from the latter. It's allowed because it's protected by the local tribes and payola to local authorities, and serves all sides. Similar things happen with AK-47's in more countries. This isn't all that different from a Points of Light setting, where anarchy and deathly threats surround most settlements.

2) There are secretive high volume, high end international illegal arms dealers. See the movie "Lord of War" for a dramatization of this trade. It's done because there's money in it, lots of money, selling unneeded arms to people with gems, drugs, or other resources, and the desire to sieze more of them.

3) Official business. Licensed arms manufacturers/dealers selling to the government and its friends -- but not it's enemies.

The main magic shop in my campaign is most like #3, though the players might not have precisely figured that out yet.

Stuff like this is sold almost exclusively to governments, and militaristic organizations, and at high volumes. A group of 5 people buying one bazooka is likely amazingly rare or it never happens. Just for a group of 5 people to get the right contacts in the first place to find these people would be very difficult. And then, after that, selection is an issue. Chances are, your characters wouldn't be able to find what specific item they were looking for.

D&D has other problems that don't exist nowadays--creation of such items doesn't occur in mass quantities. So, how were cannons sold?

Right, that or provide services. IMC, both magic shops do Identify spells and spell components too. And their inventory has a certain amount of turnover, particulary for the Fast Moving Consumer Goods of a magic shop -- cure potions and low level scrolls.

Not or. The initial investment in the items requires a return on the products. If a product isn't selling, you don't carry the product.

If all that sells is low level scrolls and potions, then you aren't going to carry the stuff that doesn't sell. This is why FLGSs stop selling books and start selling cards.

Where the capital comes from is another good question in designing a magic shop.

My answer to this is that the limited capital of the shop DOESN'T belong to the sorcerer who runs it -- it belongs to the mage's guild, who own the guild monopoly on the trade, because of their cooperation with the government.

This provides exactly the same problems. For anyone to put up the money, there has to be a return on the money. The sale price of magic items compared to the creation price makes this likely impossible. You'd have to greatly increase prices which (in my opinion, again) screws over the players. If you want to go back to the bazooka analogy, note that their cost greatly exceeds their cost-to-make.

Guilds, governments, monopolies -- all good medieval thoughts. But not a reason NOT to think about this stuff.

And things that can hurt suspension of disbelief regarding magic item shops and magic users. There are some things that fantasy stories just don't go into.

Nod. I think logical, deeply immersive worlds where this sort of thing has been thought through and makes sense makes for fun gaming, rather than bad gaming. If the players discover you've thought deeply about the magic shop, they may wonder about the reasons behind a lot of other things, which makes the game more exciting -- if they start asking "but WHY are the orcs here"/"how come the magic shop doesn't get robbed" instead of just assuming everything is "because I said so", things get more immersive and interesting, in my opinion.

Your mileage may vary.

I think that logical, deeply immersive worlds make for fun game--as a rule of thumb. But, the real world is more complicated that people care to learn, creating such a world would take advanced knowledge in a variety of fields, and it would still be flawed because not even experts can clearly explain everything much less emulate it.

For the record, I don't like or use the "because I said so" excuse either, and don't recommend people use it.

 

[haakon1]

Stuff like this is sold almost exclusively to governments, and militaristic organizations, and at high volumes. A group of 5 people buying one bazooka is likely amazingly rare or it never happens.

In suburban America or most other countries, you're correct that civilians can't buy "bazookas".

But the idea that no small group anywhere can buy an RPG-7 is both not very imaginative and not very observant of the actual world we live in.

-- What are pirates off Somalia, bandits in Congo, tribal militias in Iraq, Pakistan, and Afghanistan, and foreign fighter volunteers in Iraq all carrying? AK's and RPG-7s. They got them somewhere.

Start thinking about WHERE, and you can start thinking about how a magic shop might actually work.

Admittedly, those guys are more like the villains than the heroes in most D&D campaigns, but the foreign fighters -- and "private military companies" who guard against them -- seen in many of these wars do bare some resemblance to PC adventurers.

If you start thinking and learning about societies where combat is part of everyday life -- whether now or in the past -- you can get some interesting ideas on your campaign world would function.

For anyone to put up the money, there has to be a return on the money. The sale price of magic items compared to the creation price makes this likely impossible.

In 3e and 3.5e, creation prices are 1/2 of sale prices. That's a 100% profit margin. Of course, you also have to give up XP, which does limit the size of the supply -- but it doesn't imply, as you would have it, that it would be "impossible" that anyone would make items for sale. You also don't allow for the possibility of TRADE in existing magic items, for which there's obviously both supply and demand in every campaign.

And doesn't a limited supply -- from people who are willing to burn XP for profit, or trade-in existing magic items -- make a specific inventory MORE realistic than assuming anything the PC's want can be bought?

I get it if you just don't CARE about background, or this element of background, and want to magic wand away the stuff that's not relevant to the adventure.

What I don't get it that you think a D&D world is inherently inconsistent and "impossible". I think it's quite possible -- and interesting -- to make it internally consistent and plausible.

And I don't get where your original hate for what I'd call "plausible world making" is coming from. If you don't like it, fine, but why is it bad for other people to like it?

I think that logical, deeply immersive worlds make for fun game--as a rule of thumb. But, the real world is more complicated that people care to learn, creating such a world would take advanced knowledge in a variety of fields, and it would still be flawed because not even experts can clearly explain everything much less emulate it.

I think most D&D players are intellectually curious and are quite capable of dealing with complex worlds that are very different from our lives in current day America.

I know my players are. My players include a guy who served in the Peace Corps in two countries in Africa, two military history buffs, and a veteran who was involved in the Somalia War. It's not a stretch for them to imagine a world where non-governmental fighters can buy RPG's, since two of them have actually been there.

Agreed, other players may not be able to find Somalia on a map, or know anything about real wars, or want anything resembling the real world in their campaigns . . . but that's why different campaign styles work for different groups.

 

[Jdvn1]

In suburban America or most other countries, you're correct that civilians can't buy "bazookas".

But the idea that no small group anywhere can buy an RPG-7 is both not very imaginative and not very observant of the actual world we live in.

-- What are pirates off Somalia, bandits in Congo, tribal militias in Iraq, Pakistan, and Afghanistan, and foreign fighter volunteers in Iraq all carrying? AK's and RPG-7s. They got them somewhere.

Start thinking about WHERE, and you can start thinking about how a magic shop might actually work.

Admittedly, those guys are more like the villains than the heroes in most D&D campaigns, but the foreign fighters -- and "private military companies" who guard against them -- seen in many of these wars do bare some resemblance to PC adventurers.

If you start thinking and learning about societies where combat is part of everyday life -- whether now or in the past -- you can get some interesting ideas on your campaign world would function.

Certainly, heroes and villains work very differently. But also, none of the sorts of organizations you mention are parties of 5. The ability to buy in bulk makes a big difference. Also, many of those organizations are notorious for stealing their supplies (also in bulk). Most heroes aren't going to do that.

In 3e and 3.5e, creation prices are 1/2 of sale prices. That's a 100% profit margin. Of course, you also have to give up XP, which does limit the size of the supply -- but it doesn't imply, as you would have it, that it would be "impossible" that anyone would make items for sale. You also don't allow for the possibility of TRADE in existing magic items, for which there's obviously both supply and demand in every campaign.

When taking cost into account you have to consider the xp cost as well. Especially considering that a magic item creator in 3.x reduces his ability to create with each created item. Creating in bulk is indeed either impossible or near-impossible. Either way, it's certainly impractical.

And, of course I'm considering the possibility of trade. But, trading something essentially works the same way as purchasing something. You give a +2 sword in exchange for a certain amount of gold or its equivalent in other stuff. You're not going to make a trade for a loss in overall profit if you can help it, or you wouldn't make the initial investment to begin with (which is also true for the other guy in the trade).

And doesn't a limited supply -- from people who are willing to burn XP for profit, or trade-in existing magic items -- make a specific inventory MORE realistic than assuming anything the PC's want can be bought?

Certainly, a limited supply is more realistic than magically attaining anything you want. I agree with you there. The problem is with your assumption--realistically, anything the PCs want wouldn't be available. And it isn't fun not to be able to get the item you've been saving up money for. But, if you made your assumption true, then the whole discussion is moot--why come up with specific inventories if everything the PCs would ever want is available?

On the other hand, I assume that given some time, the PCs can find someone somewhere who has or can make any item they want and can afford, assuming I've done a decent job in keeping their wealth close to their expected wealth. As the players become more advanced, their connections are more diverse, and they're able to travel to where ever they need to get what they want or special order whatever they want. And special ordering stuff can happen in the background (since they just need to talk to a guy and wait a bit). I just assume the players spend a little time talking to the right people and am liberal about time frames and letting players handle the transactions on their own.

I think that's much more realistic, actually. There isn't a stock of items lying around someplace, you have to use your connections and find middlemen for special orders. And, if you know what you're doing (I assume my players are at least moderately careful), they'll be able to find people sympathetic to their cause or their gods' causes to take care of the otherwise possibly exorbitant price. If you think about it, this is how Achilles got his armor (via Hephaestus) and how Arthur got his sword (via the Lady of the Lake), but the characters are less likely to deal with immortal or divine beings except at the epic tier, but it might be a more relevant analogy since we're dealing with magic items.

I get it if you just don't CARE about background, or this element of background, and want to magic wand away the stuff that's not relevant to the adventure.

What I don't get it that you think a D&D world is inherently inconsistent and "impossible". I think it's quite possible -- and interesting -- to make it internally consistent and plausible.

And I don't get where your original hate for what I'd call "plausible world making" is coming from. If you don't like it, fine, but why is it bad for other people to like it?

The way I see it, I care too much about this element of background, hence I don't want it to kill the verisimilitude of the game. I've listed a bunch of reasons why such a system is implausible.

And, hate is a very strong word to use. I think limiting what your players can buy can screw them over (in other words, makes the game unnecessarily more difficult for them), which isn't fun.

But, you used the term 'wrongbadfun.' I said, "If your players are happy ... that's great." And I stick by that sentiment--if you and your players are happy with your game and how you answer those questions, more power to you. Have fun. It isn't my style, but I appreciate that people have other styles.

I think most D&D players are intellectually curious and are quite capable of dealing with complex worlds that are very different from our lives in current day America.

I know my players are. My players include a guy who served in the Peace Corps in two countries in Africa, two military history buffs, and a veteran who was involved in the Somalia War. It's not a stretch for them to imagine a world where non-governmental fighters can buy RPG's, since two of them have actually been there.

Agreed, other players may not be able to find Somalia on a map, or know anything about real wars, or want anything resembling the real world in their campaigns . . . but that's why different campaign styles work for different groups.

That's great. I've gamed with military guys as well. That doesn't mean they're experts in economics, and certainly most D&D players--intellectually curious or not--also aren't experts in economics or economic history.

 

[Nifft]

(...) many of those organizations are notorious for stealing their supplies (also in bulk). Most heroes aren't going to do that.

That's right! Heroes never steal.

Heroes loot, after stabbing.

Cheers, -- N

 

[Celebrim]

That's right! Heroes never steal.

Heroes loot, after stabbing.

Cheers, -- N

Only in about half of game worlds.

In the other half, heroes go to Excaliburs-R-Us and stock up. Because that's more economicly plausible in their game worlds.

 

[Nifft]

Only in about half of game worlds.

In the other half, heroes go to Excaliburs-R-Us and stock up. Because that's more economicly plausible in their game worlds.

In some gameworlds, like Shadowrun, the "heroes" do both.

"Talismong-R-Us", -- N

 

[karlindel]

Normally, I determine shop inventory when it becomes important, rather than generating a list ahead of time. I determine it based on the specifics of the shop (such as what kind of shop it is, size of the town, location factors such as access to trade routes, rarity of the item, demand for the item). Note that demand for the item can run both ways, as certain items may have been bought out recently.

I ask the PCs what they're looking for, then decide if I think the shop definitely will or won't have it, or give a chance to have it based on the factors above. I then decide what kind of markup, if any, based on the shop owner's relationship with the PCs, current demand, etc.

If the PCs ask me what's in the shop with no specific ideas on what they're looking for, I'll throw out a few random items that the shop would definitely have.

 

[Neonchameleon]

IMC in 4e there are normally two types of magic shop: Expensive junk and crafters. Expensive junk shops can get you what you need in a couple of hours (or possibly less if it's significantly below their level or consumable) but only if someone else has sold it. But normally you commission the magic items, pay upfront (possibly to escrow or possibly just a 20% deposit), and come back 24 hours later. Because what you are buying is to order and didn't exist until it was created. (If you want an upgrade you need to leave the item to be upgraded with the crafter's front man).

Healing potions are much easier to find. Because you don't need to be either borderline psychotic or have more money than most people will see in their lives to find one.