D&D 5E (2014) How do you DM Mage Hand Legerdemain and oil/acid/holy water

[overgeeked]

What? It makes no logical, in-world sense that the most minor of telekinetic magics isn't easy, quick, and accurate enough to make attacks on 6-second timescales? That makes decent sense to me, in roughly the same way that a cantrip that can light a candle isn't a fireball.

But even the small flame of a candle, correctly applied, would hurt. And in short order cause damage.

It cannot attack, which would dropping or pouring quickly and accurately, on a target that is actively avoiding having crud dropped or poured upon it.

The majority of people don’t bother looking above them.

It has logic and consistency, in context. You seem to have left out the context. To wit: not all dropping and pouring is combat-effective.

How many feet up would a 10 lbs object need to drop before it had enough momentum to cause damage? A penny dropped from a skyscraper can still kill. There’s nothing quick or accurate about it. Someone emptying a 10 lbs bag of coins from a great beight doesn’t need to be quick or accurate. Seige warfare is a thing. Boiling oil poured onto a spot and killing people standing there.

 

[Umbran]

But even the small flame of a candle, correctly applied, would hurt. And in short order cause damage.

Sure. But it also goes out very easy - like when flailing it around like a weapon.

The majority of people don’t bother looking above them.

The majority of people are not in the business of fighting things for their lives, either.

Given that there's no rules that reflect your assertion, I don't see how it is a solid argument for giving the cantrip any notable greater ability. I suggest you go have the argument that the rules should support various forms of benefits for attacking from above, and then when that's generally agreed upon, come back to this discussion and press the case.

How many feet up would a 10 lbs object need to drop before it had enough momentum to cause damage? A penny dropped from a skyscraper can still kill.

Oh, that latter is a myth. Pennies have relatively low terminal velocities - only about 25 mph.

Could a Penny Dropped Off a Skyscraper Actually Kill You?

Collisions with air molecules slow a falling penny. Also, its flat shape contributes to air resistance. So it might damage your skull but not drill through it

www.scientificamerican.com

There’s nothing quick or accurate about it. Someone emptying a 10 lbs bag of coins from a great beight doesn’t need to be quick or accurate.

Sorry, there's very little similarity between dropping one 10 pound hunk of metal, and dropping 1800 objects that are 2.5 grams each.

 

[aco175]

I would likely allow it it be a bonus action to take it out and make him use an action to attack with it, maybe allow the cunning action as well.

Some depends on what is trying to be done. It seems the player wants extra attacks and is trying to game things. I would be more lenient on other cool things or game things like opening locks in combat and such.

 

[S'mon]

@OP why do you say 'bonus action' not 'action'?

 

[Benjamin Olson]

I'd be on the liberal end of the spectrum if I thought it was just some one-off hijinks by the character. If I had a player who considered this such a go to strategy that "it DRAMATICALLY changes the power level of an Arcane Trickster Rogue in tier 2" then I'd probably lean towards deeming it an attack and not allowing it at all. I'm inclined to give the Arcane Trickster a wide latitude to make the most of one of their core abilities, but 5e is fairly stingy about where it gives out additional attacks (and the places where it isn't careful tend to be some of the examples of more unbalanced abilities, feats, etc.).

 

[ECMO3]

That makes decent sense to me, in roughly the same way that a cantrip that can light a candle isn't a fireball.

Except it says in the description of a spell that you CAN dump out a vial of liquid.

It cannot attack, which would dropping or pouring quickly and accurately, on a target that is actively avoiding having crud dropped or poured upon it.

The hand is invisible, so I don't necessarily think the target would be doing that and most likely would not know it was there.

Also the rules on pouring oil do NOT use an attack roll. It only cites an attack when you splash it or throw it.

 

[ECMO3]

But even the small flame of a candle, correctly applied, would hurt. And in short order cause damage.

The majority of people don’t bother looking above them.

How many feet up would a 10 lbs object need to drop before it had enough momentum to cause damage? A penny dropped from a skyscraper can still kill. There’s nothing quick or accurate about it. Someone emptying a 10 lbs bag of coins from a great beight doesn’t need to be quick or accurate. Seige warfare is a thing. Boiling oil poured onto a spot and killing people standing there.

A penny dropped from a skyscraper inside the atmosphere would reach about 40 miles an hour, less than half the speed at which a MLB pitcher can throw a fast ball and about 70% of the speed an NFL QB can throw a football. If a football weighing a pound and going 60mph does not cause damage a penny weighing about a tenth of an ounce and going 40 wouldn't either.

If you are comparing momentum here is how those things compare:

100 mph baseball - 1.43 lb-s

60 mph football - 2.75 lb-s

40 mph penny - 0.0115 lb-s

Certainly something like a sword or club dropped will cause damage, but not a lot of damage. If being actually stabbed with a dagger causes 1d4, I would say either of these dropped from 30 feet would be pushing it to do 1.

 

[AtomicPope]

RAW - the hand cannot attack.

It's really only useful in combat for an Arcane Trickster, as it allow them to disarm traps or administer a potion (neither are attacks) as a bonus action. Rogues are not a multi-attack class, but AT Rogues get a little extra allowing them to do something else and still attack. It's one of the many things that makes them so appealing. The Arcane Trickster is built for these stunts, and even they are limited.

 

[ECMO3]

I'd be on the liberal end of the spectrum if I thought it was just some one-off hijinks by the character. If I had a player who considered this such a go to strategy that "it DRAMATICALLY changes the power level of an Arcane Trickster Rogue in tier 2" then I'd probably lean towards deeming it an attack and not allowing it at all. I'm inclined to give the Arcane Trickster a wide latitude to make the most of one of their core abilities, but 5e is fairly stingy about where it gives out additional attacks (and the places where it isn't careful tend to be some of the examples of more unbalanced abilities, feats, etc.).

Well a Rogue is not a very powerful class in terms of raw damage.

Also to be clear "dramatically" refers to the span of examples I gave, from being able to automatically able to dump on an enemy without a check or roll (which is OP IMO) as compared to not being allowed to try it at all (which is underpowered).

FWIW Mage Hand features prominently in combat I do with a Rogue, even if my DM does not allow this trick. Aside from the example here, I also use it to control the battle field with caltrops, ball bearings, hunting traps, steal enemy weapons before their 1st turn or their ammunition cases, steal their spell focuses/component pouches etc. That is really a defining trait of an Arcane Trickster. The knick is having the mage hand out though, because although you can use it with a BA, it takes an action to cast. So if it is not already out it when combat starts, it can be difficult to get it out.

 

[Cap'n Kobold]

Except it says in the description of a spell that you CAN dump out a vial of liquid.

No one is claiming you can't. They're just pointing out that you can't dump it rapidly and accurately on someone as an attack, because the spell specifically prohibits making attacks.

You can still pour out the oil onto the ground and then light it for example.

The hand is invisible, so I don't necessarily think the target would be doing that and most likely would not know it was there.

The jug of oil is not invisible.

Also the rules on pouring oil do NOT use an attack roll. It only cites an attack when you splash it or throw it.

If you are trying to get the oil on a creature or object, that is an attack roll, whether you are upending the container and trying to splash them with the oil directly, or throwing the container at them.

As stated, the rules on pouring the oil allow you to cover an area, which can then be lit. However the original poster was talking about hitting a creature with the oil, not creating a pool on the ground.