How do You feel about Sorcerers and Metamagic Feats?

[paulewaug]

hey RingXero, have you checked out the preview of Arcana Unearthed's Spell Templates ?
It may not be any better, but then again, it just might.
I am looking forward to this product so far.

With regards to Energy Substitution, I allow it.
I think for the sorcere it is a nice option since there spell's known are limited and this does a lot to give them options.
I also have no problem with a wizard (or whatever) researching and learning an energy substituted spell.
It's kind of funny that T&B the book that has the EnergySub feat has the "orb" spells and lists each one seperately.
So IMC you can feat it or learn it,
Although as a nod to the Sonic energy substitution..I May require that the feat be taken as a "tree" to learn the sonic substitution.
SO they would have to learn Cold, Fire, Electricity, and Acid (at this point in any order) and Then have access to learning Sonic.
This would require a total of 5 feats to get "Energy Sub. Sonic"
Also I have no problem with the "side effects" as they I have not yet had much experience with them and use plenty of creativity
in the workings of Magic IMC. Obviously magic in a game has to follow certain rules, but since it Is Magic it doesn't Have to Make Sense.

Although I treat "Cold" as being a draining of heat rather than an emitting of coldness. And IMO this Could cause a side affect of things "catching fire" due to interaction of the energy exchange.
Or just make it "Cold Fire" if you want to keep it less scientific and more magical. (granted I don't know if there is any physics rational to back this up, but I am not concerned with it. This for me is a very small step of Suspencion of Disbeleif.)

 

[Plane Sailing]

I wouldn't expect energy substitution to appear in 3.5e supplements from WotC because they've given that power specifically to Archmages (prestige class), and nullifying that high level power with a feat seems pointless.

The problem is simple. In 3e energy types were considered only in so far as means of avoiding energy damage resistance. That is pretty much the only significant difference between them (that and the shape of spell).

What they *should* have done: given each of the element types a special effect, which was consistent amongst all spells of that type.

e.g. (off the top of my head)
all Fire spells ignite you if you fail your ST.
all Electrical spells stun you for 1r if you fail your ST
all Sonic spells deafen you if you fail your ST
all Cold spells slow you for 1r if you fail your ST
all Acid spells... dunno, make you shaken for 1r if you fail your ST?

It looks like Monte might be doing something similar to this with his spell templates.

Anyway, with this kind of consistency you could *either* rule out energy substitution entirely, *or* change the energy type and its special effect (so a cold-substituted fireball won't ignite things, but it might slow someone for 1r). A sonic-substituted fireball might deafen someone rather than ignite them.

Tell you what - I'll introduce this in my game starting at my next session and tell you how it goes

 

[Arc]

I've never actually gone for E-Sub (Sonic), but that's because I usually grab Archmage as soon as I can. Free subsititution to every element on the fly makes the feat kinda useless.

 

[paulewaug]

Hey Plane Sailing, I have to agree that I do prefer the way Monte handles it in Arcana Unearthed he has obviously put thought into it.
(I am looking forward to that release very much!)

I'll be watching your Story Hour for the energy sub to make it's trial debute, I assume you will be "trying it out" on the PCs?! hehe!!

 

[Shard O'Glase]

Hey Plane Sailing, I have to agree that I do prefer the way Monte handles it in Arcana Unearthed he has obviously put thought into it.
(I am looking forward to that release very much!)

I'll be watching your Story Hour for the energy sub to make it's trial debute, I assume you will be "trying it out" on the PCs?! hehe!!

The fact that he did much of anyhting to change metamagic is a big + in my book. One of my biggest disapointments with 3.5 is when they said there aren't any signifigant changes to metamagic because they didn't have time to playtest it. IMO metamagic is one of the things that should of gotton a priority in playtesting.

 

[kigmatzomat]

Re: Re: How do You feel about Sorcerers and Metamagic Feats?

The Quicken Spell thing hurts, if only because sorcerors can't cast two or more spells in one round (splatbook items notwithstanding) before 30th level. 8P

Ummm, Sorcerers *CAN* use Quicken.

From the SRD (emphasis mine):

Quicken Spell (Metamagic)
Benefit: Casting a quickened spell is a free action. The character can perform another action, even casting another spell, in the same round as the character casts a quickened spell. The character may only cast one quickened spell per round. A spell whose casting time is more than 1 full round cannot be quickened. A quickened spell uses up a spell slot four levels higher than the spell’s actual level.

Spontaneous Casting and Metamagic Feats: Clerics spontaneously casting cure or inflict spells can cast metamagic versions of them. Casting a 1-action metamagic spell spontaneously is a full-round action, and spells with longer casting times take an extra full-round action to cast.
-------------------------

That "more than" is the key. 1 full round is *not* more than 1 full round (1 > 1 = false).

So sorcerers can quicken most, but not all, spells. Ahh, the amount of destruction an elemental savante can do is good for the soul.

 

[Ravellion]

all Acid spells... dunno, make you shaken for 1r if you fail your ST?

Nauseous, as T&B's Greater Acid Orb.

Rav

 

[Hypersmurf]

Re: Re: Re: How do You feel about Sorcerers and Metamagic Feats?

That "more than" is the key. 1 full round is *not* more than 1 full round (1 > 1 = false).

So sorcerers can quicken most, but not all, spells. Ahh, the amount of destruction an elemental savante can do is good for the soul.

Not quite, I'm afraid.

Feather Fall is cast as a free action.

A Wizard casts Extended Feather Fall as a free action.

A Sorcerer casts Extended Feather Fall as a full-round action, since he's applying a metamagic feat.

Magic Missile is cast as a standard action.

A wizard casts Quickened Magic Missile as a free action.

A sorcerer casts Quickened Magic Missile as a full-round action. Quicken Spell makes the casting time a free action... but the sorcerer is applying a metamagic feat, so the free action becomes a full-round action.

-Hyp.

 

[kigmatzomat]

Re: Re: Re: Re: How do You feel about Sorcerers and Metamagic Feats?

Feather Fall is cast as a free action.
A Wizard casts Extended Feather Fall as a free action.
A Sorcerer casts Extended Feather Fall as a full-round action, since he's applying a metamagic feat.

Ahhh, we have a difference in order of operation.

You:
Spell+feat effect+Sorceror metamagic penalty

Me:
Spell+sorceror metamagic penalty+feat effect

Magic Missile is cast as a standard action.
A wizard casts Quickened Magic Missile as a free action.
A sorcerer casts Quickened Magic Missile as a full-round action. Quicken Spell makes the casting time a free action because the spell's casting time is not more than a full round.

Spells that are by default a full-round action to cast still cannot be Quickened by sorcerers by my order of precedence.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: How do You feel about Sorcerers and Metamagic Feats?

Ahhh, we have a difference in order of operation.

Yes, but mine is the right one

From the Main FAQ p24:

Are sorcerers, bards, and clerics using spontaneous
casting able to use the Quicken Spell metamagic feat?
They can, but there is no point in their doing so. A sorcerer
or bard who uses a metamagic feat on a spell must cast the spell
as a full-round action (or the normal casting time plus an extra
full-round action if the spell’s casting time normally is longer
than 1 action). Clerics using spontaneous casting must follow
the same rule. This rule makes Quicken Spell worthless for
these characters.

-Hyp.