How Do You Get Your Players To Stay On An Adventure Path?

Zak S

Guest
I have never (and may never) run an adventure path or any kind of scenario that
wasn't heavily tilted toward "do what you want" there may be consequences for not
addressing problems that come up, but the campaign itself isn't built around set
ways of addressing them.

But I am curious: how do you (personally) keep players on adventure paths?

Do you make sure there's always an overriding in-world imperative?

Are your players just used to it and so make sure they're doing something that's part
the story?

Do your players go "Ok, we won't try that it isn't in the module?"

Or.... something else?
 

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delericho

Legend
A combination of mind control and regular beatings (needed to reinforce the mind control).

Actually, I don't do anything. Somehow, it's just never been an issue - for the most part, I've found that my players are quite happy just to follow the path of adventures. Of course, them knowing "we're playing Shackled City" may be a factor in that, even though there was actually nothing stopping them just packing up and leaving the city.
 

Celebrim

Legend
I have never (and may never) run an adventure path or any kind of scenario that
wasn't heavily tilted toward "do what you want" there may be consequences for not
addressing problems that come up, but the campaign itself isn't built around set
ways of addressing them.

But I am curious: how do you (personally) keep players on adventure paths?

How do you get players to get off of one?

Even if I create a railroad with the idea that it might fork at various points, and go off in new directions, in general my players have a tendency to keep trucking down the mainline. I'm not entirely sure why, but I can give a couple of theories.

1) The mainline is the democratic or consensus direction. Taking a fork is usually taking a risk or prioritizing something controversial. Often as not, it means deciding to do something that would make a character in the party uncomfortable and possibly a player. Why can't we switch sides and start backing the BBEG? Well, because what are we going to do with the cleric who is supposed to be upholding good and light? Why can't we just go off and become pirates? Well, because first no one is actually a good sailor and secondly because the knight is sworn to uphold the law and the parties letter of marque expired when the war ended. Or conversely, if you have a whole party of renegades any assertion that maybe we should stop acting like a bunch of greedy jerks all the time is likely to get shouted down. In general, people are afraid to advocate for their viewpoint for fear of creating tension in the party, so they just stay quite and go with the flow - which tends to be in the direction of the adventure path.

One thing I've learned over the years is just how dramatically the number of players you have impacts what stories you are able to run. So much of Indy gaming advice is so obviously geared toward having 3 players or less. The few players you have, the more intimate and personal you can run your games and the more the inner mental life and desires of an individual character (and player!) shape what the game is about. When you get up to 6 or 8 characters, you just don't have time to shine the spotlight on any one character's private life for very long. You just don't have time to spend half a session on melodrama, character building, and riffing off of a single characters backstory and goals. Unless every characters goals are on the exact same page, time spent on those side stories has to be sandwiched at sometimes long intervals in between the main plot that interests the whole group.

2) I think there is some fear that if they switched gears and did something that they "weren't supposed to do" that for some reason I wouldn't be able to handle it. I don't know why they think that, because they know that they are less creative than they think that they are and I tend to stay several steps ahead of them no matter what they do and that I can improvise pretty well, but the fear of 'going off the map' seems to be still there like suddenly if they do the wrong thing they'll walk into an empty set like some episode of the twilight zone. They know by now that the story is about The Esoteric Order of the Golden Globe and it's front group the Tristar Parcel and Packet Company, the Archmage Keropus and his Strange Engine, and a plot to create a second sun to power Vivamancy. They know pretty much every dangling hook has turned out to lead back to that plot, even if they weren't immediately sure how. And so they laser like focus on things they see related to that. What this tends to mean is that when plot threads lead them to intersections of one plot and the main plot, they also take the branch that goes back to the main plot - even when they might have personal reasons not to. For example, I had a plot line going with the Cult of Nauti's plot to get the Decamarchy to approve Nauti as an official patron deity of the city of Amalteen where I'd built up a tension between Nauti's high priest and the party cleric, and where I'd introduced a serial killer for them to track, and so forth. But unless I just greased the rails to force them in that direction, they tended to wander away from it whenever that plot line required them to 'go uphill' and do something somewhat hard like "come up with a plan to infiltrate the cult and/or storm their secret temple".

3) Honestly, they mostly want to stay on the rails. Before the campaign started I gave the players a survey/questionnaire regarding what they wanted in a campaign, and collectively they all preferred a game that was further on the spectrum of railroad than it was on the spectrum of sandbox. They want to be taken for a ride, and to a certain extent it doesn't matter what I the GM want here. Basically, after 30 years I think you can largely divide players into two camps. Those that as soon as they see what they think is a hook or a DM cue, bite on as hard as they can and won't let go, and those that as soon as they see what they think is a hook or a DM cue run consistently in the other direction. I'm not sure which group is actually easier to steer, as both groups have a tendency to act erratically against their self-interest just because they think it is cool or because they just aren't thinking about the consequences of what they do.

4) For the first time ever, I'm running a "save the world" plot. And I really have mixed feelings about it, because it really gives the party very little freedom to pursue their own ends. It's big and its epic and at times its cool, and my idea that the whole campaign would be like a chase scene from Last of the Mohicans or Road Warrior is at times playing out well. But wow is it linear to have this one overriding in-world imperative. Sometimes I wish the party had a reason to just stop and explore for a while, and not just at times when they'd lost the thread of the plot and don't know what to do next. For example, one side plot has involved the longest surviving PC's relationship to his family - he was given in to the caring of the temple of the God of Death and raised as a warrior monk (western version, think Knight Templar) at an early age. For the longest time he was trying to discover who he was and why he was given away. Their was this long running gag where everyone recognized him and knew more about him than he did. He eventually discovered that his family was rebel outcasts from a very violent episode in history, and then discovered that they were all a bunch of werewolves and vampires with a plot to take over the country and bring back the worship of The Old Gods. But no one really raised the idea of, "That's cool. We should do something about that." Because, "Save the world first. Save the country later." And it's pretty much the same with any other side plot that comes and goes. If you don't just tie the PC's background down to the rails, in which case, you are railroading the PC every bit as much as if the PCs background didn't matter to the plot, then well, the PC's background doesn't matter to the plot.

5) Most people who think they run open sandboxes don't really. They just run adventure paths where they haven't figured out ahead of time where people are going. But they are actually steering the PC's just as hard as if they had have done so unconsciously by the cues that they give the players and the myth they create as they play. In fact, if anything this "open world" play in my experience is more linearizing than most adventure path play. At least in an adventure path, it's clear when you've got off the rails because the rails are well defined. In my own experience as a player with "open world" play, whenever you exit stage left you enter stage right. With no myth defined for where left, right, or forward leads you, all roads inevitably lead to Rome. If you go left, the DM is like, "Well, I don't know what is to the left, but here is what I think will be interesting." And if you go right, the DM says the same thing to himself, functionally making the choice invalid. The drapes may change on the stage, and some of the props, but the play remains the same. Justin Alexander wrote an interesting piece where he asked if there was any difference between randomly generating 6 encounters and then regardless of what the player choose to do, presenting those 6 encounters in a row and randomly generating an encounter after each of the players 6 choices. We feel like one is different, but are they really?
 
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delericho

Legend
How do you get players to get off of one?

Present them with several options, all of which have clear benefits and downsides, none of which can be considered the "obvious" choice, and make it clear to them that they have to make this decision knowing they have imperfect information about the situation.

It's hard for them to keep on running along the main line when there isn't one.
 

Celebrim

Legend
Present them with several options, all of which have clear benefits and downsides, none of which can be considered the "obvious" choice, and make it clear to them that they have to make this decision knowing they have imperfect information about the situation.

It's hard for them to keep on running along the main line when there isn't one.

The "main line" defaults to, "Keep heading in the direction we are heading."

I think there is some truth to your advice, but in my experience I think you'd have to much further than that. You have to make it very clear that continuing in the same direction is impossible.

Early in the campaign I had planned a fork. Either the party could keep chasing the renegade tribe of goblins that turned out to be behind an early story line into the mountains, or the party could return to the capital city to follow up on a clue that the goblins were in contact with someone in the capital. Neither was to me the obvious choice. The party lacked perfect information, but they knew that goblin bandits were raiding towns further in the mountains and they had the name of a goblin chief that had been behind the plot. Back in the capital, they had a lead on a merchant company that the goblins had purchased equipment from and which some cultists had been selling arcane equipment to. In my mind, this fork was, "Go have wilderness/dungeon adventures?" or "Go have urban/dungeon adventures?" But in retrospect, I should have known what they choose because in another way of looking at this, it was a question of, "Go somewhere new?" or "Go somewhere we've been before?" They ended up choosing "Go somewhere we've been before." almost by default.

To not have a mainline, I probably would have needed to make A and B both somewhere in the unknown.

And to me this brings up a further problem. If A and B are both in the unknown and the PC's have imperfect information, is this really an informed choice or just a coin flip? If it's just a coin flip, is it really any better than being on rails?
 

Zak S

Guest
If A and B are both in the unknown and the PC's have imperfect information, is this really an informed choice or just a coin flip? If it's just a coin flip, is it really any better than being on rails?

It's way better: When you go see a movie you have imperfect information, but you still can have an opinion about if you want to see the one about the dinosaur or the one about the murder mystery.
 

Celebrim

Legend
It's way better: When you go see a movie you have imperfect information, but you still can have an opinion about if you want to see the one about the dinosaur or the one about the murder mystery.

Yes, but it won't stop you from saying, "Gee, I wish we'd gone to see the one about the dinosaur." With movies, you can see both and then you know which was to your taste. With RPGs, choices tend to be more irrevocable. Movies just sit there on the shelf waiting for someone to watch them, unchanged by the fact you've seen the one with dinosaurs. At the least, with RPGs now you'll be riding around the murder mystery on a dinosaur or not.
 

Zak S

Guest
Yes, but it won't stop you from saying, "Gee, I wish we'd gone to see the one about the dinosaur." With movies, you can see both and then you know which was to your taste. With RPGs, choices tend to be more irrevocable. Movies just sit there on the shelf waiting for someone to watch them, unchanged by the fact you've seen the one with dinosaurs. At the least, with RPGs now you'll be riding around the murder mystery on a dinosaur or not.

in every campaign i've been in there's room enough to do both.

Anyway, this is, very ironically a derail of my thread about keeping people on rails so...
 

delericho

Legend
The "main line" defaults to, "Keep heading in the direction we are heading."

I think there is some truth to your advice, but in my experience I think you'd have to much further than that. You have to make it very clear that continuing in the same direction is impossible.

Indeed. I didn't want to write a several-thousand-word essay, so I simplified. :)

Early in the campaign I had planned a fork. Either the party could keep chasing the renegade tribe of goblins that turned out to be behind an early story line into the mountains, or the party could return to the capital city to follow up on a clue that the goblins were in contact with someone in the capital. Neither was to me the obvious choice.

I've never played with a single group that wouldn't choose to carry on in that situation. Having come this far, they're invested in that course of action, so they'll see it to conclusion.

A better dilemma would be to offer them a time-limited chance to pursue that lead back in town (that is, go now or lose the chance forever), or raise some imminent threat back in the town that needs their attention, or something of that sort.

And, of course, more choices than two would be even better still - the optimum is somewhere around 5-7 well differentiated options, though of course that's seldom a realistic target. :)

And to me this brings up a further problem. If A and B are both in the unknown and the PC's have imperfect information, is this really an informed choice or just a coin flip? If it's just a coin flip, is it really any better than being on rails?

That's why I said "imperfect information" and not "no information" - they need some information so they can differentiate the choices, but they should also be left with some doubt so they find the objectively-best solution.

It's like any of those forms of poker where you can see some, but not all, of the cards your opponents can play with - they might have a winning combination or they might be bluffing, and it's not obvious either way. But you have some information - you can know the odds of some combinations coming out, you can maybe read an opponent's 'tell', and you may know how they've handled this before. So, what do you want to do?
 

Celebrim

Legend
And, of course, more choices than two would be even better still - the optimum is somewhere around 5-7 well differentiated options, though of course that's seldom a realistic target. :)

Oh they had more than that, they just didn't realize it. In a sense, both of the above choices were staying on the rails. They could have hopped right off at that point. They didn't even know about saving the world at the time. Off the top of my head.

"Screw this. I want vengeance on the man who marooned me. Let's go play pirates and kill that SOB."
"Screw railroads. I want to find my father. Supposedly he's been seen in the nation south of this one. Let's just go in that direction and see what happens."
"Rex loves dinosaur. Rex wants a dinosaur that shoots laser beams from his eyeballs. Let's find out where there are dinosaurs and go there."

None of that really came up because it was personal, and they were having fun on the rails. Getting off and forging your own path is risky and requires effort.

They would have had more options at that point, but at the time I didn't know how to manipulate the group as well as I do now. Most of the group is Self-Centered Ruthless (CN) in inclination - several definitely trend Belkar Bitterleaf CE and would go that way if a few other party members weren't playing the Roy and anchoring them to the heroic.

But ironically, the guys with yellow exclamation marks over their heads that they tend to admire and get along with the most are not benevolent tolerant sorts, but Lawful Evil manipulators. Cruel ruthless Lex Luthor types tend to repeatedly earn their admiration and even trust (even when that trust is decidedly not mutual). They love crime bosses. They get more offended by the guy that acts chivalrously than the guy that secretly poisons them before interrogating them, and then gives them the antidote afterwards when they've answered their questions satisfactorily. My initial attempts to associate the group with good aligned and noble mentor/quest giver figures failed spectacularly because the group so clearly wears their badge of amorality that scrupled types often end up deciding they are villains. So my initial attempts to associate them with someone that could give them insight into what was going on failed. People I thought would be allies became enemies, and they often end up de facto henchmen of some pretty not nice types.

Now if I need to insert expository dialogue or a new branching quest, I know just what sort of archetype to turn to. Not that it matters per se, as they tend to go, "I found rails. Let's go that way."
 

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