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How Do You Get Your Players To Stay On An Adventure Path?

By your example, they were on the plot and decided to leave it and explore somewhere else. By placing the plot inside that new dungeon you took away their agency. You invalidated their choice to leave the plot behind and go do something by forcing them to encounter the plot again in a different spot when that plot point could have remained with the original plot, and you invalidated their ability to choose whether or not to go back to the plot they left behind.

That's railroading. I'm not saying that railroading is always bad, but it is what you were engaging in when you invalidated their choices like that and forced the plot on them.

This is a big error in thinking. There's no clearly marked path called "plot" nor a marked area called "not plot" in my campaigns. The players didn't decide to move away from the plot. They decided to explore. Plot is everywhere, always. What sort of plot they encounter, depends on where they go, but there will always be plot.

So they didn't decide to leave the plot behind at all. Because there aren't any clearly marked plot paths. They could stumble on bits of plot anywhere, because as a storyteller I fill in the blanks of where they decide to go. I just choose to not introduce only none-plot related things. If possible, I make everything I introduce make sense, and ensure that it is some how related to other things in the story.

I think a lot of these illusory choices are just about creating a bit of colour. By choosing the desert or the forest, the players choose some colour. If the GM is any good, this also means that perhaps the dragon at the bottom of the dungeon gets changed from blue to green, or vice versa. If the PCs choose to go north then the weather at the dungeon is cold (assuming the typical northern hemispheric gameworld); if they choose to go south then the weather is warm.

Contributing to colour in this way isn't the greatest expression of player agency by any means, but I can see why some RPGers wouldn't regard it as a complete was of time. (I think this is at least part of what [MENTION=6801286]Imaculata[/MENTION] is trying to get at in this thread.)

What I do is completely adapt the story to what ever choice was made. Maybe the wizard at the beach watches over the sea, and has an army of giant crabs at his command? Maybe the wizard in the forest is actually a druid, who warns them of the dangers of the nearby forest, but offers to help them pass through safely, if they do something for him.

So it isn't a matter of simply adding a bit of color. Everything about the tower/dungeon/npc can change depending on where I decide to move it. And there may be other details apart from just the tower, that the players will have to deal with. The tower in this example, is just one thing that I may want to introduce into the story. Its not a matter of forcing the players to visit the tower, but a case of finding a proper moment to introduce part of the plot (which can happen anywhere).
 
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Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
This is a big error in thinking. There's no clearly marked path called "plot" nor a marked area called "not plot" in my campaigns. The players didn't decide to move away from the plot. They decided to explore. Plot is everywhere, always. What sort of plot they encounter, depends on where they go, but there will always be plot.

So they didn't decide to leave the plot behind at all. Because there aren't any clearly marked plot paths. They could stumble on bits of plot anywhere, because as a storyteller I fill in the blanks of where they decide to go. I just choose to not introduce only none-plot related things. If possible, I make everything I introduce make sense, and ensure that it is some how related to other things in the story.

If there was an error in my thinking, it's because you made it. You used the phrase "the plot" and when they encountered the dungeon while exploring, they picked up "the plot" again because you forced it on them. Below is your quote.

My players decided to ignore the plot at some point, and explore an island. I rolled some random encounters, and updated the map accordingly with what they encountered on their travels. They met some important npc's, and uncovered a mysterious ancient city built into the side of a cliff. With great caution they lowered themselves into the structure, and started exploring it. Since they reached this important location at the end of our session, this left enough time for me to design a dungeon for the next session.

They eventually reached the end of the dungeon, and had a boss battle with some giant spiders. The spiders were guarding a special room, with a coffin that was sealed shut with a spell. The players broke the spell, and opened the coffin, to find a young girl inside. She was meant as a vessel for one of the evil deities in the plot of my campaign, but now the players had disrupted this plan, and added the girl to their pirate crew. And there you go, the plot is picked up again. Its that simple.

Now, had you created a new and entirely different plot for them to encounter in the dungeon, it would be different, but you didn't. Instead you forced the original plot on them when the decided to ignore it, thereby removing player choice and railroading them. You refused to allow the player the option to ignore your plot.
 

Starfox

Hero
The more important thing is whether the choice has any effect at all. If not: that's a waste of time.

If the entire content of either choice is the same, the choice doesn't matter. If the tower is the ONLY thing there either way, it was a pointless choice.

In the example with the road to two different terrains, (both of which, unknown to the player's, have the same wizard's tower), then the choice is meaningful in that it sets the mood of the milieu. A desert adventure is not the same as a woods adventure, even if both have the same plot. And player skills may also be terrain-specific.

In a way, this empowers the players - they get to create part of the setting by deciding where the wizards tower stands (and has always stood). The players' choices shape the world. We're moving into narrativism.
 

If there was an error in my thinking, it's because you made it. You used the phrase "the plot" and when they encountered the dungeon while exploring, they picked up "the plot" again because you forced it on them. Below is your quote.

See, this is what you got all wrong. A dungeon does not need to have a plot. It can be just a maze with some monsters, traps and treasure. But I decided to make it more than that, by including bits and piece of lore, and including something that ties into the lore.


Now, had you created a new and entirely different plot for them to encounter in the dungeon, it would be different, but you didn't. Instead you forced the original plot on them when the decided to ignore it, thereby removing player choice and railroading them. You refused to allow the player the option to ignore your plot.

Wrong. This plot would not have happened, had they not gone into the dungeon. I specifically wrote a plot for this dungeon, that would tie into the existing main plot line.

The main plot does not rely on them rescuing this girl. But it adds a new angle to it, and will now have a big impact on the overall plot. It also gave them more insight into the lore and history of the world.

In the example with the road to two different terrains, (both of which, unknown to the player's, have the same wizard's tower), then the choice is meaningful in that it sets the mood of the milieu. A desert adventure is not the same as a woods adventure, even if both have the same plot. And player skills may also be terrain-specific.

In a way, this empowers the players - they get to create part of the setting by deciding where the wizards tower stands (and has always stood). The players' choices shape the world. We're moving into narrativism.


Starfox gets it. The players and the DM are creating the story together. This is empowerment of the players, and not railroading (which you might even consider to be the opposite of empowering).
 
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pemerton

Legend
it isn't a matter of simply adding a bit of color. Everything about the tower/dungeon/npc can change depending on where I decide to move it. And there may be other details apart from just the tower, that the players will have to deal with.
Starfox gets it. The players and the DM are creating the story together. This is empowerment of the players, and not railroading (which you might even consider to be the opposite of empowering).
I don't quite follow this, because [MENTION=2303]Starfox[/MENTION] is saying exactly the same thing that I said.

In the example with the road to two different terrains, (both of which, unknown to the player's, have the same wizard's tower), then the choice is meaningful in that it sets the mood of the milieu. A desert adventure is not the same as a woods adventure, even if both have the same plot. And player skills may also be terrain-specific.
This is the player-contribution-to-colour that I mentioned upthread.

The players' choices shape the world. We're moving into narrativism.
Only very modestly, I would say.
 

N'raac

First Post
Meh. Hard to get worked up with that as significant railroading. Might as well call the campaign world a railroad since they can't avoid it.

This seems to be another example of “if it is not bad, it is not a railroad”. Railroading is neither good nor bad. At an extreme, the characters could make the decision to seek out potent magic to allow them to travel to a different plane of existence, thus avoiding the campaign world (after getting out of it, anyway). If that choice is frustrated, that is an element of railroading.

To be clear, my posts that refer to “CHOO CHOO here comes the plot train” adopt the most anti-railroad, pro-sandbox gamers I have ever run across. My own preferences, and approaches, are less sandbox-extreme, but they are my own preferences, and there are gamers whose preferences are much more sandboxy than my own

I really can't say that putting information in front of the PCs, whether it's from the initial planned source or another, improvised source, is really railroading. You're still giving them the choice of how they use the information. In fact, it'll be the only way they can make an informed choice - by knowing about the potential adventures out there and then pursuing one or more of them.

Again, if we’re moving the information from place to place to place, we are railroading the players to at least encounter the information leading to the plot in question. If they don’t find the clue to lead them to the goblin camp, and go somewhere else where they find clues leading to a completely unrelated wizard’s tower, now we are in the sandbox.

Its really not. The players weren't actively trying to ignore the plot. They just wanted to go on an adventure, and hoped that they would find a cool plot along the way. I don't like putting signposts everywhere with "Please go here! No not that way! This way!".

If I present a problem to my players, like for example a dragon, then I don't force them to fight that dragon. But if the dragon is part of the plot, then I will make sure that they at least learn about the dragon. And I don't expect them to go looking for something that they do not yet know exists. So to some degree, you've got to bring the plot to them. You can't expect them to already know where your adventure hooks will be. And they're not actively trying to avoid adventure hooks. They are role playing, and doing what they think their characters would do in that situation. It is up to me, as a DM, to make the journey exciting. Be it in the form of quests, plot hooks, npc's or random encounters.

Again, if they walk away from the Dragon plotline, and you move the Dragon plotline to follow them, I would call that railroading. You seem very defensive whenever it is suggested your approach is, in fact, a form of railroad, so I suspect you conflate “railroad” with “bad”. To me, neither railroading nor sandboxing is inherently bad. Both can be good or bad depending on how they are applied, and depending on the preferences of the gamers themselves.

THEN it would be railroading.

It is no different than any other means of repurposing the dungeon to something the characters encounter later, a strategy many on this thread favour. Again, “railroad” does not equal “bad”. As my examples become more extreme, the railroad becomes more and more “GM forcing players to activity they do not wish to undertake”. That makes the game less fun, and that is bad. In this case, we have found a situation which is both “bad” and “railroad”. That does not mean all examples of “railroad” are bad.

But it's a bad sandbox,and a terrible way to tell a story. We're trying to run a good campaign here I would assume?

We’re trying to run a campaign that the players enjoy. I have certainly met players who feel their characters should interact with a pre-existing world that does not morph to suit the characters. For those players “we did not find the Magic Mcguffin and so we were wiped out” is the logical and appropriate result. These players might, in fact, be offended if the DM said “hold up, guys, you will be wiped out if you go there before here”, or even if the DM prevented the PC’s from going the wrong way with a trail of bread crumbs.

It is a matter of degree, and different gamers find different balances they prefer.

That is a terrible way to handle it.

It is not the way you wish to handle it. It isn’t the way I’d likely handle it. It is the way other gamers, more focused on the “sandbox” would wish to handle it. Their way is not objectively “terrible”, any more than yours or mine is.

You are assuming the players want to experience the plot you have created, rather than carve out their own plot, or engage in a more episodic playstyle. For a lot of players, that will be true. For others, it will not be.

Do the players know that the forest is not related to the dragon? No they don't. Do you know for certain that the players have no intention to fight the dragon? No, you don't know that either. Maybe the players want to gather more information on the beast first. Maybe they want to make sure they are better equipped. As a storyteller, you should provide those things for them. Have them meet victims of the dragon on their journey. Give them the opportunity to learn more about the beast, and to properly equip themselves. So what if they don't go to the dragon in a straight line?

Actually, my players tend to discuss their plans, so it’s not hard to assess whether they are seeking information and assistance to help them engage the dragon, or just want to do something other than dragon hunt. But they like a plot, and are not opposed to a railroad, to a degree. They are not sandbox-centric.

You seem to conflate “your game has elements of a railroad” with “your game is no fun”. I believe the former is true, and the latter is not. A game can be a railroad and still be fun. It can be a sandbox and suck. And the opposite can be true of both. As well, the same game can be fun for some players and suck for others, solely because they have different visions on the appropriate degrees of “railroad” and “sandbox”.

I'm gathering from this discussion that a sandbox consists of the PCs in a sort of stasis bubble in which nothing happens outside of what they directly interact with, because if it did, then hey, it's a railroad plot that happened even though the players didn't wNt it to.

At the extreme of “sandbox”, I think that is true.

Celebrim;6724777But in a pure sandbox said:
Exactly.

I will say "choice is removed" is way too vague a description. Choice is always being limited in a game by the mere fact that, say, Glorantha isn't Greyhawk so you can't do Greyhawk specific things there. It's the OVERuse of techniques that limit choice that makes a railroad.

You mean we CAN’T find a Spelljammer ship or a caster with Plane Shift or some other means of transit from Glorantha to Greyhawk? We have to follow YOUR plot instead of OUR search for the Gateway to Greyhawk?

CHOO CHOO!

Railroading is when you are stuck on a track from A to B, and there are no choices to be made at all.

A is where I am now. B is your Wizard’s tower. Wherever I go, there it will be.

Its when the DM decides not only the story, but also the outcome of the story, and decides the choices of the players for them. That's railroading. When they have no choice what so ever.

That is not the sole form of railroading. It is an ultimate extreme of railroading, just as “only the world the PCs are presently interacting with is alive” is an ultimate extreme of sandboxing.

That's the basic premise of the campaign, everything else is in their hands. They can sail anywhere they like, and try and recruit allies. They can go on wild adventures, and explore strange and dangerous islands. Or they can go off and hunt other ships, or maybe even hunt sea monsters. Meanwhile they are also building a base (something the players came up with). They can even venture into the realm of the dead.

Can they abandon the seas to build a nation in a landlocked desert? Can they walk away from the big battle the plot is headed towards and live out long and adventurous lives with that battle happening, entirely without them, with no impact on their lives other than distant news reports? THAT would be a sandbox. [Oh, and it would be a sandbox if they moved to the arctic tundra, the forest, the jungle or the mountains – the desert is not what makes it a sandbox ]

By your example, they were on the plot and decided to leave it and explore somewhere else. By placing the plot inside that new dungeon you took away their agency. You invalidated their choice to leave the plot behind and go do something by forcing them to encounter the plot again in a different spot when that plot point could have remained with the original plot, and you invalidated their ability to choose whether or not to go back to the plot they left behind.

That's railroading. I'm not saying that railroading is always bad, but it is what you were engaging in when you invalidated their choices like that and forced the plot on them.

“Took away their agency”? How about “reduced their agency”? Each reduction is a shift from Sandbox to Railroad.

If they are following the plot trail and decide to leave it to do something else and you force that plot on them anyway, you are railroading. You already gave them the choice and they chose to leave it behind.

BINGO

It's not a drive-by. While I may not have as much time to participate in this discussion as other people, I'm still here. And it's not a straw man, it's an observation. I've seen a scenario where a vengeful pirate tracks down the party described as a railroad. In fact, I've seen just about every scenario where actions come and find the PCs described as a railroad. Therefore, the only way to have a not-railroad is to not let anything effect the PCs except things under their direct sphere of influence, hence, the logical conclusion is that some sort of stasis warp prevents things outside that sphere from actually doing anything.

The extreme of Sandbox.

Yes - I agree with you. Upthread we've had any in-world restriction on PC autonomy, such as the vengeful pirate chasing them, described as railroading if the players would rather he didn't. At that point you're no longer running a living world. It's like the Plane of Infinite Law in a Moorcock story, where nothing ever happens. Law is good, but all extremes are pathological.

DOUBLE BINGO – the extreme poles of Moorcock’s Law and Chaos occurred to me more than once in describing the extremes of Railroad and Sandbox. Neither in inherently “good” or “evil”, nor “right” or “wrong”. A satisfactory balance between the two needs to be struck. Both the optimal, and the range of acceptable, balance will vary from gamer to gamer.

The other thing that matters to me is the issue of "secret backstory". I am quite averse to the GM making decisions about what happens to the PCs, or decisions about action resolution, that are driven by backstory considerations that are secret from the players. Whether or not this is railroading in any strict sense, it's something I don't like.

I think it’s sandboxing. The world exists for the players to encounter and uncover based on their objectives, and their skill in implementing those objectives.

Wrong. This plot would not have happened, had they not gone into the dungeon. I specifically wrote a plot for this dungeon, that would tie into the existing main plot line.

The main plot does not rely on them rescuing this girl. But it adds a new angle to it, and will now have a big impact on the overall plot. It also gave them more insight into the lore and history of the world.

I see your Wrong and raise you a further Wrong. What you see as “a plot for the dungeon”, I see as “adding a thread to the existing plot line”. Had your Dungeon plot been independent of the main plot we wish the players to return to and engage in, that would be a sandbox. Having all roads lead to Rome makes Rome a railroad. Whether it is a good railroad or a bad railroad depends on the players' desire to journey to Rome.
 

Lots of stuff rolling around in this thread. Just a couple of thoughts.

1) Railroading involves a family of techniques whereby a player's autonomy to make meaningful decisions (which in turn affect the trajectory of current and future play; eg "agency") are subordinated by an external force. This external force might be (a) the will of the GM or (b) the constraints/boundaries of a metaplot/module. In either case (a) or (b), if the group has overtly agreed to this dynamic, then play will proceed functionally (even though it is still a Railroad). If they have not, then the social contract is likely broken (presupposing the antithesis is the default) and one should expect dysfunctional play and meta-conflict to emerge at the table (with some regularity).

2) "No myth" or "low resolution setting" play, which primarily zooms in on "scene/situation", isn't inherently "Railroady". In fact, as [MENTION=42582]pemerton[/MENTION] depicted upthread, systems that support such play typically have built-in GM constraints and transparency in play procedures which make either overt or covert subordination of player agency (the former being GM Force and the latter being Illusionism) extraordinarily difficult if not all-out impossible.

For instance. After checking on an unresponsive, isolated settlement high in a frozen mountain range, a pair of player characters uncover a Far Realm invasion in the remains of the now-ruined settlement. The settlers and all the animals for miles and miles are turning into mutated horrors. Why? How? What? Whether or not the rest of the world is intensely fleshed out does not diminish their abilities to investigate, form a theory, come up with a plan of action, and respond. They investigate the ruins and find various leads to pursue. They discover that a few refugee families left (which would put them dead in the frozen wasteland or in one of the few "civilized" places in the frozen mountain realm; the Barbarians of The Coldlands and the Hobgoblins of Earthmaw). In the course of play, further lore about this place is generated via various player rolls. A powerful ancient blizzard dragon claims this domain from his glacial lair. Perhaps an appeal to his hobgoblin servitors would earn them an audience? Despite his intrinsic nature, perhaps they could convince him of the alien threat to his realm and gain temporary alliance (or get eaten...or slay him and take his treasure)?

Point being, a low resolution, abstract setting (whereby further details/nuance or filled out during play) in no way inhibits the prospects of player agency. You don't need to intimately know the ethoi of 17 various offscreen Gods, the cash-crop of offscreen city-state A, or the power-brokers of offscreen mercantile guild B in order for players to make meaningful, informed decisions which drive play. And having tight, focused thematics baked into characters (where the level of zoom becomes very relevant) certainly doesn't inhibit a GM's ability to create situations that appeal to/conflicts with those thematics!
 

billd91

Not your screen monkey (he/him)
Again, if we’re moving the information from place to place to place, we are railroading the players to at least encounter the information leading to the plot in question. If they don’t find the clue to lead them to the goblin camp, and go somewhere else where they find clues leading to a completely unrelated wizard’s tower, now we are in the sandbox.

Except that information isn't a limited resource. Its presence in one planned location doesn't preclude it from also being in another unplanned location or in a slightly different form that also makes sense. Inserting additional sources of information to replace missed ones doesn't take you out of a sandbox.
 

Celebrim

Legend
Randomized generation of a map is not improvisation. It is generation.

To a large extent I'm happy to agree with this - even though it is technically wrong - simply because it does no harm to my point. Anything you create without prior preparation is improvisation, regardless of the technique you employ. (Indeed, the stuff you create outside of a session is still improvisation, differing only in that it is not done under time pressure.) But for now I can let this claim stand, because none of the systems I described can depend on pure randomization. You still have to produce the orc's castle or the dragon's lair on demand. You don't have a random generator for everything. And if you'd actually used the random dungeon generator in the appendices you'd know that it doesn't work without some degree of DM guidance and judgment. The thing can generate nonsense results, spatially impossible results, and requires judgment calls on how to treat all sorts of possible results (chasms, rivers, etc.). The DMG actually tells users to apply their judgment.

It is repeating the pattern that is the game so players can game it. You should remember this terminology as you were around early on. All those DMs saying, "I'm not making it up!" DMs are never to make choices after the code of the game is selected prior to play. D&D is after all a (wildly enormous) variant of Mastermind.

This is just wrong on so many many different levels I don't know where to be. First of all, there is no 'pattern'. The dungeon board is arbitrary and the result of whim. You can't define a dungeon as meeting any sort of pattern. It can be random or nonrandom. It's not confined by anything but the DM's judgment. When you compare it to Mastermind, the real difference is easy to see. Sure, the positions of the colors on a particular puzzle are random and arbitrary and the result of whim as well. But each is equivalent. No particular pattern is special. D&D by constrast inherently produces 'boards' that are special and different from all others. They are not equivalent. Each board is inherently unfair or at the least nothing constrains a board to be fair except again, DM judgment. D&D is closer in this regard to Calvinball than it is to Mastermind. The DM not only makes up the board, but the pieces of the board, the rules that apply to those pieces, and the laws that govern all interactions on it. This is particularly true of 1e, where there were few or no metarules regarding anything, resulting in adventures were every single room had unknowable rules unique to the room governing how the room worked. A good example of this would C1: Hidden Shrine of Toamochan.

And yet, for all the copious notes, there is simply not enough notes in the module to remotely decide how to resolve player propositions about interacting with the 'board' without resorting to improvisation. Nor will answers be found in the 1e DMG to questions of how much it reduces the chance of drowning to try to throw a rope to a drowning man. It's not there. It's a requirement of being a DM to be able to make stuff up. It's unavoidable, because the game isn't definable within a narrow set of rules and no set of rules could ever be complete enough to describe the game. How the heck do you think this game is decipherable when the rules set is infinite?

Like every single game, D&D enables players to play a game by presenting them with a pattern design to decipher. Just like Tic-Tac-Toe, just like Chess, just like every wargame.

Not every single game involves a pattern to decipher. Game strategy can't be equated to a mechanical deciphering of code, because few games are so mechanistic. I notice you have a remarkable fondness for choosing games that lack any random factor. Tic-Tac-Toe, Chess, and Mastermind are examples of mechanical games, which lose their savor precisely when they become analyzable. D&D is not a mechanical game. The randomness of the game defies any attempt to deduce a pattern from it. It's not merely a case of being a wargame with a random element to resolution, like say Bloodbowl, where we can apply statistical logic to every element of the game. D&D is far too freeform for that. D&D is not a strategy game. It is a game that may occasionally have a strategy minigame, but its never confined only its strategy minigames. The DM is free to improvise into the game any sort of minigame of his choosing, according to whatever rules come into his head. Indeed, improvisation is precisely what separates D&D from a tactical wargame. Improvisation in the middle of a wargame is the creative act that birthed the RPG. The exciting notion that the game could go beyond mere 'code breaking' as you name it, and become a story is what caused the board wargamers to give up the dreary plains of Poland and become excited dare we say fanatically role-players from almost the moment that this shocking revelation occurred to them.

When the players go off the map the DM must generate more, either on the fly during a session which can slow it down, or by stopping the session.

Either way would be improvisation. The DM must make stuff up through some process. And the DM is not limited in what he makes up. If he wants to have a room filled with living candy plants and a dragon that breathes soap bubbles or a room that is a pastiche of the Wizard of Oz, or an inescapable death trap, it may not be good judgment by the DM but he's within his rights.

Arbitrarily making something up, that isn't part of the pattern of the game, means you are expressing babble.

How in the world do you think dungeon maps get created if not arbitrarily making something up?

They are only and ever a referee.

Gygax himself disagrees with that claim in the 1e DMG. The DM is most certainly not only and ever a referee, but per the rules is much more than that.

I think your meaning of improvisation requires some explanation. Unless you're referring to unbiased, un-improvised refereeing, I don't see how what you say could be true.

My meaning of improvisation requires only a dictionary. Your meaning of improvisation is increasingly reliant on nonsense and contradiction. Explain how the map can be extended without application of DM judgment and choice? I can certainly see how application of the rules can be done without bias in most cases, assuming of course there are rules covering the situation, which isn't normally the case in 1e or OD&D, but there is no way that its possible to create the game world without bias.

This is categorically false. Storytelling has never been part of games. Not until White Wolf published the "Storyteller system" to very disagreeing game public did anyone confuse games with stories. (Heck, storytelling as a culture didn't even exist all that long ago).

For someone who is quick to claim something is false, you sure have a way of stringing together a bunch of obviously false statements that betray just how limited your gaming experience is. Even were we to except your utterly ludicrous claim that storytelling isn't part of D&D (ever played I6, UK1, DL1, I3-I5, etc.), and even if we were to accept your ludicrous claim that storytelling wasn't what drove D&D from the beginning (do you know anything at all about the Blackmoor campaign?), White Wolf was rather late to the story focused gaming table, already occupied by games like C&S, Pendragon, and even to a large extent Top Secret and Marvel Super Heroes for crying out loud. There are plenty of academic sources that make it very clear that from the inception of the idea of the RPG, the idea that the game was telling a story and could be used as a collaborative story telling medium has been a part of the game. And your idea that the DM is creating nothing with no more story meaning than the pins in a game of Mastermind is ludicrous. D&D content isn't a couple random colored pins - but a setting, with characters, with motives, ands with events.

And storytelling as a culture has been around since at least the time man invented fire.

To be clear, storytelling is not gaming. Code breaking is gaming. They are not even the same culture.

D&D has no code. No rules for constructing this coded board you think exists actually exist, and to the extent that you could construct such rules they would create a game obviously and inherently inferior to D&D precisely because the attraction of having a DM is that the DM has the power to create non-mechanistically and escape any limitations of a code. People don't play D&D because its code breaking. They play it because it isn't.

A DM isn't playing the game, so they cannot ever "force" any action.

Sure they can. Any DM worth his pizza can between sessions construct a board such that actions are forced. The question is not whether he can do so, but whether he ought to do so. And there is no science to that. No rules can tell the DM whether or not his board is too linear or too broad. He has to use his judgment.
 
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howandwhy99

Adventurer
I'd like to respond back, but I think you'd just repeat what you've said again. For the large part, you're simply naysaying what I've said. "You can't do that! You have to do it this way. Everyone has always done it this way." Well, we can run it as I pointed out. And as D&D was designed to allow players to play it as a game not as collaborative storytelling, it's what we as DMs are supposed to do.

On to answering your questions:

The DM not only makes up the board, but the pieces of the board, the rules that apply to those pieces, and the laws that govern all interactions on it. This is particularly true of 1e, where there were few or no metarules regarding anything, resulting in adventures were every single room had unknowable rules unique to the room governing how the room worked. A good example of this would C1: Hidden Shrine of Toamochan.
Game boards (like all the pieces in the game) are function maps of the game's algorithm. C1 is certainly convertible to the game engine as it stands. If the players want it rather than something randomly generated, they can select it - once converted it's all the same.

How the heck do you think this game is decipherable when the rules set is infinite?
Precisely because D&D is an infinite game, not an finite game. Per game theory terminology.

The randomness of the game defies any attempt to deduce a pattern from it. It's not merely a case of being a wargame with a random element to resolution, like say Bloodbowl, where we can apply statistical logic to every element of the game.
On the contrary. Read the front of the box. D&D is a wargame. And certainly not because it has anything to do with war.

D&D is far too freeform for that. D&D is not a strategy game.
There is no such thing as freeform anything in games. Gaming is the act of discovery, never invention. And D&D only qualifies as a game when treated by players as a design to strategize within, so they can master their roles within the design. That's the basis of an RPG, at least as D&D is designed. Also, there is no such thing as a game being played where strategy is not performed.

Improvisation in the middle of a wargame is the creative act that birthed the RPG. The exciting notion that the game could go beyond mere 'code breaking' as you name it, and become a story is what caused the board wargamers to give up the dreary plains of Poland and become excited dare we say fanatically role-players from almost the moment that this shocking revelation occurred to them.
You must know you're rejecting obvious reality now. How can you not remember D&D before the 90s? OD&D was 10-15 years of the most hard-nosed, number-crunching, rule tweaking, nerd-filled gamers as ever existed. (Well, barring some 1970s wargamers.) But we were not well-formed, socially fit, artistic, nuanced expressers! Creating a narrative held no game challenge for us. You can't lose telling a story! (which is why those that can never be a game). We were gamers! Everyone of us. As everyone everywhere understood games to be then. Something in no way resembling storytelling - the act of quitting gaming to make something up. This is not what created the craze of D&D. You're putting the absolutism of critical theory before its inception (early 80s) and ignoring the past. D&D was as addictive as any other number crunching, pattern recognizing, code deciphering game. (or puzzle :) ) And just like every other game that requires rigorous mental processing and memory recall it was copied onto a computer, the true successor of RPGs, roleplaying without the referee.

FYI, D&D was actually a breakthrough because it uses extensionality to cover everything any player could ever, perhaps not imagine, but convey to a referee who converted that then into the game system so everything could be actually gamed. That was a game worthy of lifelong addiction where you never wanted a single play of a game to end. Where the depth of the pattern was its complexity and created a hardcore gamer craze in the era of pinball and Pacman.

How in the world do you think dungeon maps get created if not arbitrarily making something up?
Generating them, as I said.

Explain how the map can be extended without application of DM judgment and choice?
JUdgment? Yes. Choice? No. Pull out that protractor and measure. Do the math. Move the game pieces. This is the point of being a referee rather than a player. A referee in D&D (like in Mastermind) does not make choices after the game has begun. They impartially relating the pattern generated according to the attempts of players to decipher. (In the 70s and in D&D expressing a fictional persona had zero to do with roleplaying).

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Anyways, I hope the above clarifies things for you and maybe jogs your memory. You're a smart, level-headed guy and I'm hoping you're willing to remember what was actually going on in the wargaming communities of the 70s and 80s and their counterpart community RPGs.

Last point, Gary certainly never wanted D&D to be storygame. He spoke out against "theater games" even at the end of his life (even though he lost one battle to bad game design - "skill games"). He designed massive amounts of rules to ensure D&D could be such a wonderful game and not fall into the non-game cesspit of improvisation. These rules may not have been all great, but their amount certifies his commitment to maintaining D&D's status as a game, for certain.
 

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