D&D 5E How do you handle magic item churn in 5E?

[tetrasodium]

That's a nice assertion, but I strongly disagree- 5e's magic item economy (if you want to call it that) works fine, not all magic items are too powerful, and I'm not sure what you even mean by 'subjective dials'. The 3e "body slot" system was okay, but nothing stopped you from (for instance) making some kind of mind control item as a pair of boots and paying the upcharge. Very few dms that I saw would care enough to stop that sort of thing.

For example 6 strength kobold gish to 19 strength with an uncommon item, what next?

wow that's great, not only does it recharge but it's only a 5% chance of losing it if you spend the last charge? Surely that's an aberration right?... oops no it's nearly everything that recharges & stuff without the 5% can just not ever use that last charge.

Back in 3.5 they were things like asf, acp, speed, crit range ,crit threat, etc. That subjectivity was not limited to 3.5 though, even 4e had a bunch of subjective dials, for example armor (speed, dr, armor penalty, etc) and weapons (brutal#, defesive, high crit, etc) both had a bunch. So instead of Andy needing to pick more powerful magic items for the style game he wants, Alice needs to design an a new system for them for the game style she wants.


As to your boots of mind control?... no 3.5 dmg288 pretty much explicitly slaps that down

But even if either gm said sure, Bob is going to be paying a very real price because of that 50% cost increase

that is opposed to 5e where the rules for magic item crafting may as well be written on a cocktail napkin complete with a ring from lunch so both Andy & Alice are in for a lot of work if they have Bob who really wants to get into crafting magic items with his character in their campaign.

 

[billd91]

Yeah, all those 3e and 4e modular magic item things are gone and we're much closer to being back to AD&D! It's awesome!

 

[the Jester]

View attachment 120098
For example 6 strength kobold gish to 19 strength with an uncommon item, what next?

View attachment 120099
wow that's great, not only does it recharge but it's only a 5% chance of losing it if you spend the last charge? Surely that's an aberration right?... oops no it's nearly everything that recharges & stuff without the 5% can just not ever use that last charge.

So first, neither of those are all that powerful.

Back in 3.5 they were things like asf, acp, speed, crit range ,crit threat, etc. That subjectivity was not limited to 3.5 though, even 4e had a bunch of subjective dials, for example armor (speed, dr, armor penalty, etc) and weapons (brutal#, defesive, high crit, etc) both had a bunch. So instead of Andy needing to pick more powerful magic items for the style game he wants, Alice needs to design an a new system for them for the game style she wants.

Oh, so you're talking about weapon properties? 5e has those too- for instance, finesse, heavy, thrown, etc. But I wouldn't characterize those as subjective dials. After all, plate armor always has the dials set the same way, magic properties aside. And you can have any of those 3e or 4e properties in 5e too- in fact, I have converted hundreds or thousands of magic items from earlier editions.

that is opposed to 5e where the rules for magic item crafting may as well be written on a cocktail napkin complete with a ring from lunch so both Andy & Alice are in for a lot of work if they have Bob who really wants to get into crafting magic items with his character in their campaign.

Because it isn't assumed that pcs can make magic items at all in 5e. Instead, magic items are in the purview of the DM. If you really want to get into crafting magic items in a DM's campaign, you need that DM to buy in to the idea in the first place.

 

[tetrasodium]

So first, neither of those are all that powerful.

Ok Goku, Alice is trying to avoid Super Saiyan as the baseline for normal though. That's fine for Andy's game but is very problematic in Alice's. An item that can take an 8 or even a 3 to 19 is indeed powerful. The same holds true for an item that permanently grants 1d6 castings of a spell every day to a character until they find a better one. If those kinds of things were not the case, we wouldn't be here in a thread from someone asking about handling item churn in 5e.

Oh, so you're talking about weapon properties? 5e has those too- for instance, finesse, heavy, thrown, etc. But I wouldn't characterize those as subjective dials. After all, plate armor always has the dials set the same way, magic properties aside. And you can have any of those 3e or 4e properties in 5e too- in fact, I have converted hundreds or thousands of magic items from earlier editions.

No, 5e has Boolean values, The key difference between all of those things you note in 5e & all of those things in 3.5/4e that I mentioned is that the 5e ones are either true or false while the earlier ones had subjective numerical values that allowed difficult choices not possible with 4e's Boolean values.

Because it isn't assumed that pcs can make magic items at all in 5e. Instead, magic items are in the purview of the DM. If you really want to get into crafting magic items in a DM's campaign, you need that DM to buy in to the idea in the first place.

Spoiler: crafting Magic Items

Your assertion didn't stop them from publishing half a rule in xge... Nor did it stop them from giving rules for players to randomly award themselves magic items that Alice needs to work with Bob on... First step, create all the magic items bob could make & decide what kinds of rare stuff he needs in order to finish the cocktail napkin into a finished system, suitable for bob to use in play. Lucky for Andy, he doesn't even need to go through the grueling work f selecting more powerful items forcharacters like goku & friends he wants at his table.

Spoiler: Buying magic items

 

[Cap'n Kobold]

Ok Goku, Alice is trying to avoid Super Saiyan as the baseline for normal though. That's fine for Andy's game but is very problematic in Alice's. An item that can take an 8 or even a 3 to 19 is indeed powerful. The same holds true for an item that permanently grants 1d6 castings of a spell every day to a character until they find a better one. If those kinds of things were not the case, we wouldn't be here in a thread from someone asking about handling item churn in 5e.

I'm not sure I understand the Goku/super-saiiyan references, but when you think about it in practice, those items aren't too bad.
If someone put an 8 in a stat, its unlikely that it will be an ability that they get a lot of use out of. Conversely, if they have a lot of power based on a stat, they will probably want to max it out.

Likewise the wand of magic missiles. Unless you burn all the charges in one or two shots, you're probably going to be doing comparable damage with cantrips. Its nice t have as a backup, but its not exactly going to dominate play.

If Alice has an issue wit any of the items, she can simply not make them available in most cases.

Your assertion didn't stop them from publishing half a rule in xge...

With several options built in for DM fiat.

Nor did it stop them from giving rules for players to randomly award themselves magic items that Alice needs to work with Bob on... First step, create all the magic items bob could make & decide what kinds of rare stuff he needs in order to finish the cocktail napkin into a finished system, suitable for bob to use in play.

So Bob asks Alice if he can try to make a specific item in downtime.
Alice would need to:
Decide whether this activity is available to the characters.
Decide if the item is possible to make in her game.
Decide whether she is going to allow the party enough downtime to create the item.
Decide how Bob might be able to obtain the formula required. (adventure, buying etc. Likely determine how Bob could find out about how to obtain the formula.)
Decide what the materials required for the item are, the CR of the adventure/encounter required to obtain them.
Then start rolling for complications.

Now, if she wanted, Alice could just bypass a bunch of these checks. Or set them to a level at which she doesn't think that the item will be problematic.

Lucky for Andy, he doesn't even need to go through the grueling work f selecting more powerful items for characters like goku & friends he wants at his table.

Well, sure, he can just decide that magic items are unnecessary. or stick to what the dice say in terms of items the party might find as treasure.[/QUOTE]

 

[Eltab]

For my Tiamat campaign, I used the concept from Weapons of Legacy that the item gains abilities as you gain XP and have experiences.
Our Bard max'ed out a Staff of Healing in Arauthator's lair and created a silly-high amount of healing HP. After that, I limited the top-end healing power and added a cold-based attack (because the Bard had been hit and downed by the dragon's breath weapon during the fight).
If you play the Avernus AP, a +1 Sword might become a +1 Devilslaying Sword then (after the PCs reach Tier Three) it improves to a +2 Devilslaying Sword ...

 

[tetrasodium]

I'm not sure I understand the Goku/super-saiiyan references, but when you think about it in practice, those items aren't too bad.
If someone put an 8 in a stat, its unlikely that it will be an ability that they get a lot of use out of. Conversely, if they have a lot of power based on a stat, they will probably want to max it out.

Likewise the wand of magic missiles. Unless you burn all the charges in one or two shots, you're probably going to be doing comparable damage with cantrips. Its nice t have as a backup, but its not exactly going to dominate play.

If Alice has an issue wit any of the items, she can simply not make them available in most cases.

With several options built in for DM fiat.

So Bob asks Alice if he can try to make a specific item in downtime.
Alice would need to:
Decide whether this activity is available to the characters.
Decide if the item is possible to make in her game.
Decide whether she is going to allow the party enough downtime to create the item.
Decide how Bob might be able to obtain the formula required. (adventure, buying etc. Likely determine how Bob could find out about how to obtain the formula.)
Decide what the materials required for the item are, the CR of the adventure/encounter required to obtain them.
Then start rolling for complications.

Now, if she wanted, Alice could just bypass a bunch of these checks. Or set them to a level at which she doesn't think that the item will be problematic.

Well, sure, he can just decide that magic items are unnecessary. or stick to what the dice say in terms of items the party might find as treasure.

[/QUOTE]

Your entire argument is rooted in ignoring the fact that she does not want to run a game like andy. Here it is from earlier....

"A game like Andy's that wants fewer magic items or faster progression can just give out fewer more powerful ones, but a game like Alice's that wants more less powerful magic items & slower progression is lacking the foundational elements within 5e to do so effectively." If Alice & her group is going to spend months at a given level that andy's might only spend a couple sessions in, she needs to have magic item progression that supports it. A progression that supported it would still work for andy simply by picking more powerful items but the items built for a progression like Andy's game do not have the granularity to support Alice's badwrongfun.

You ending your post by suggesting that she just not use magic items underscores how little attention you are paying to the game she wants to run, WotC did the same. The problem with those rules in xge is that they designed the simple & then tried to apply the complex needed by Alice via postit sticky note but were still only writing for Andy, as you admit those xge rules leave Alice with a great deal of work to support Bob unless she says they are not available.

edit: as to the Goku/super-saiiyan references... if you start with 19, where do you think the more but less powerful magic items are going... over nine thousand?

 

[TwoSix]

You ending your post by suggesting that she just not use magic items underscores how little attention you are paying to the game she wants to run, WotC did the same. The problem with those rules in xge is that they designed the simple & then tried to apply the complex needed by Alice via postit sticky note but were still only writing for Andy, as you admit those xge rules leave Alice with a great deal of work to support Bob unless she says they are not available.

If you want to run a game that differs from 5e's designed paradigm, than you have to house rule. That isn't a flaw with 5e's design.

 

[the Jester]

Ok Goku, Alice is trying to avoid Super Saiyan as the baseline for normal though.

It would be easier to have this conversation if you kept to D&D terminology instead of bringing in anime stuff, because I have no idea what you're saying here.

That's fine for Andy's game but is very problematic in Alice's. An item that can take an 8 or even a 3 to 19 is indeed powerful.

Not really. You seem to be stuck in the 3e mindset, where such items give you a +2/4/6. This isn't that. This sets a stat at a specific value, much like gauntlets of ogre power/girdles of giant strength did in 1e and 2e. It was never a problem then, and it hasn't been a problem yet in my 5e games. Which, yes, have seen at least one of these items enter play.

Think about it- who is taking this item and how much are they getting from it? Almost certainly, it's not going to the front line fighter whose strength is already 20. It goes to a secondary fighter, or maybe the rogue or cleric- but almost certainly to someone who won't get a massive power boost from it. It doesn't matter if you get +12 to your strength score if you hardly ever use Str for anything that is important to your character.

The same holds true for an item that permanently grants 1d6 castings of a spell every day to a character until they find a better one. If those kinds of things were not the case, we wouldn't be here in a thread from someone asking about handling item churn in 5e.

Is that the source of the question, or are you just assuming?

Anyhow, I disagree that this is a super duper powerful item. I have pcs in my campaign with wands of fireball, and not only do I very rarely see 6 charges spent in one day- even those with many encounters- when I do, it's not a problem. Not at all. Have you actually played with these items, or are you just theory crafting? Because you really seem to be applying 3e logic to this whole discussion, and 5e simply isn't 3e.

No, 5e has Boolean values, The key difference between all of those things you note in 5e & all of those things in 3.5/4e that I mentioned is that the 5e ones are either true or false while the earlier ones had subjective numerical values that allowed difficult choices not possible with 4e's Boolean values.

You're splitting hairs here, I think- kind of yearning for the sort of complexity that, sure, you can inject into 5e if you want it, but that nobody should have forced on them as a baseline if they don't want it. Honestly, the payoff for all those "dials" you are talking about is pretty minimal, with the possible exception of critical values.

Your assertion didn't stop them from publishing half a rule in xge...

Yes, 5e has a lot of options for those who want to emulate previous editions. But magic item creation is not a central piece of the system and it's obviously intended as an add-on for those who want it. It's not exactly part of the core rules, is it?

Nor did it stop them from giving rules for players to randomly award themselves magic items that Alice needs to work with Bob on.

What? Are you talking about buying items as downtime? That's not how it works at all. Look at what XGtE says under "Example Downtime Activities"-

As DM, you have the final say on what downtime activities are available to the characters.

That's pretty far removed from "rules for players to randomly awared themselves magic items" of any kind.

The bottom line is, if you want to include those things in your game, go ahead, but you can't assume that every other game (or even any other game) is going to do the same. Hell, I treat the formula that allows you to make a magic item as equivalent to a magic item itself when handing out treasure. But I don't expect a DM I am playing under to do the same thing.

 

[the Jester]

Your entire argument is rooted in ignoring the fact that she does not want to run a game like andy. Here it is from earlier....

"A game like Andy's that wants fewer magic items or faster progression can just give out fewer more powerful ones, but a game like Alice's that wants more less powerful magic items & slower progression is lacking the foundational elements within 5e to do so effectively."

Then don't hand out the items you perceive as powerful or problematic.

If Alice & her group is going to spend months at a given level that andy's might only spend a couple sessions in, she needs to have magic item progression that supports it. A progression that supported it would still work for andy simply by picking more powerful items but the items built for a progression like Andy's game do not have the granularity to support Alice's badwrongfun.

I don't think anyone is saying that Alice's playstyle preferences are badwrongfun. Just that they aren't as problematic as you seem to think. Look, here's a solution for Alice- simply don't give out a ton of magic items. You really don't need to. Or make magic items suitable for the power curve she wants. It's not that hard. But having, 4e-style, six different items that do almost exactly the same thing with tiny numeric or usage variations is a waste of space. There's no need.

You ending your post by suggesting that she just not use magic items underscores how little attention you are paying to the game she wants to run, WotC did the same.

If she doesn't want magic items, she doesn't have to hand them out. If she does, she can. If she doesn't like the ones in the DMG, she can make her own. It's not that hard to do. It's something DMs have been doing for around 50 years now. I really don't see the problem here. Heck, if she wants a constant influx of items, she can do that. If she wants them to all be minor, she can do that. If she wants her wands to run out of charges, there's a sidebar for that in the DMG. I don't see what the problem is here at all. Is it a desire for more items that do less? Simply import them wholesale from 4e, then. In many cases you don't even have to convert them- they'll work as is.

The problem with those rules in xge is that they designed the simple & then tried to apply the complex needed by Alice via postit sticky note but were still only writing for Andy, as you admit those xge rules leave Alice with a great deal of work to support Bob unless she says they are not available.

If I am understanding you correctly here, you seem to be saying, "The problem with an option presented for people like Andy is that it's not well-suited to people not like Andy." Well, yeah. That's because it's for people like Andy, who want certain 3e-style elements in their game. It's hitting its target. It's like if someone who isn't into tactical combat starts complaining about the facing options in the DMG- you're not using them, they aren't suitable for your playstyle, don't use them.