How do you handle Mordenkainen's Disjunction?

[Artoomis]

Looking back to 3e was a good idea

..The unarmed strike damage from such an attack can deal damage to a creature with damage reduction as if the blow were made with a weapon with a +1 enhancement bonus...

Looks pretty similar - the creature must have damage reduction for it to apply. Inorporeal creatures do not (well, they might, but not as a function of being incorporeal).

Still, I'd give it to them. It's rather hypertechnical, but it is a supernatural effect, and supernatural effects can affect an inorporeal creature.

 

[Cedric]

It's 9th level...

It allows a Will Save of the item or item's possessor, whichever is better

There are dramatic drawbacks to using it

In short, if you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen...it's a perfectly reasonable spell. I'm very much opposed to the new Kinder, Gentler approach to D&D.

Cedric

 

[Hypersmurf]

Looks pretty similar - the creature must have damage reduction for it to apply. Inorporeal creatures do not (well, they might, but not as a function of being incorporeal).

That's why it only works if the Shadow has 7 levels of Barbarian.

Against an ordinary Shadow, the monk is out of luck. Give it some DR, though, and he can hit it.

-Hyp.

 

[Storminator]

It's 9th level...

It allows a Will Save of the item or item's possessor, whichever is better

There are dramatic drawbacks to using it

In short, if you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen...it's a perfectly reasonable spell. I'm very much opposed to the new Kinder, Gentler approach to D&D.

Cedric

So when you're hit with MD and you botch the saves, it's time to roll up a new PC with standard equipment? Yes, that sounds like fun.

I had a 17th level PC get whacked down to a ring of jumping and a potion. Lost a dozen points of attack, another 15 of AC, a third of my saves, a quarter of my hp, 2d6+4 (and keen, and improved multipier) of damage. I dropped an easy 8 CR on the first round of the fight, then got my ass handed to me. I don't know too many groups that have a spare quarter million gold sitting around.

The problem with the spell isn't the power, the problem is that it's no fun. Getting wiped out is not cool, especially if, like me, you're the only one in the party that gets hit. Suddenly I'm no longer in my friends' league, and that makes the game hard to play.

PS

 

[Grog]

Another screwy thing about MD is that it's more powerful than Epic Dispelling.

 

[Norfleet]

How about the alternative scenario:

Now that all my stuff is toast (including my defensive spells), I allow him to keep all his defenses up just so I can indulge my greedy side in the miniscule chance that I survive the encounter and get to loot his body. Sorry, but I will respond in kind and disjoin him before he can slaughter me and the party.

The point is that my wizard will not pre-emptively disjoin for roleplaying reasons. However it is my policy (and the DM knows this) that I will retaliate in kind if it happens. Mutually assured disjunction is a deterrent.

I don't suppose you play high-level wizards, then? Or do you just disjoin everything around you?

You DO have a number of better options: AMF can temporarily suppress all buffs. Of course, yours will be similarly suppressed, but now you don't have any. Greater Dispelling can target the opposing wizard's buffs without destroying your only source of magic goodies, and Disintegrate is quite easily capable of wiping out the opposing wizard(perhaps overly helpfully leaving his loot behind).

None of this calls for destroying your loot.

Mord's Disjunction is really the tool of a very BAD wizard. Why? Because the worse of a wizard you are, the lower the will save DC will be, and the more likely your opponent passes this will save, thereby preserving his items. If you happen to be a really inept wizard who barely managed to squeak by with 9th level casting, and never attempted to pump his save DCs, by all means, use this against every single cleric and wizard you find. Airburst to reduce the level of collateral damage through restricting the ground spread(I can't believe I'm trying to reduce collateral damage here). This is probably the single case where you actually WANT your opponent to SUCCEED on his save.

 

[Cedric]

So when you're hit with MD and you botch the saves, it's time to roll up a new PC with standard equipment? Yes, that sounds like fun.

Three things...

1. Don't keep all of your eggs in one basket, have backup gear. Sure, it won't be as good as your main gear, but it'll be good.

2. Make sure your character is more than just a moving collection of equipment. Give him/her enough depth and personality to transcend whatever may be in the backpack.

3. Come better prepared. At those levels there are ample divination spells and abilities to collect information. If you find that the opponent you face has or may have a particularly devistating attack form or spell, find a way to neutralize or find a different opponent.

At any level of the game, 1st - whatever...there should be risk. Risk of death, risk of character loss, risk of equipment loss. It's a life threatening adventure, not an extended shopping trip.

Cedric

 

[WingOver]

You DO have a number of better options: AMF can temporarily suppress all buffs. Of course, yours will be similarly suppressed, but now you don't have any. Greater Dispelling can target the opposing wizard's buffs without destroying your only source of magic goodies, and Disintegrate is quite easily capable of wiping out the opposing wizard(perhaps overly helpfully leaving his loot behind).

None of this calls for destroying your loot.

I don't ever want to use Disjunction if I can help it. I agree 100% that it's messy and may potentially destroy magic items. But vs. another wizard, a disjunction response is necessary for survival. If I find myself suddenly left defenseless from his disjoin, I have no choice but to hit him back, the heck with potential lost loot (hopefully he doesn't have an artifact on him). I'd rather be poor than dead. Besides, a wizard has the best chance of saving against it anyway, effectively turning it into an unresistable dispel magic.

Anti-magic Field is a deathwish for wizards (unless you're talking about a private duel). I'd rather use Shapechange, turn into a beholder, and nail him with the anti-magic cone.

I want to emphasize that I don't consider Disjunction an attack option. I consider it an assured response, a deterrent that will give pause to any enemy who knows that he has a Disjunction coming his way if he launches first.

Mord's Disjunction is really the tool of a very BAD wizard. Why? Because the worse of a wizard you are, the lower the will save DC will be, and the more likely your opponent passes this will save, thereby preserving his items. If you happen to be a really inept wizard who barely managed to squeak by with 9th level casting, and never attempted to pump his save DCs, by all means, use this against every single cleric and wizard you find. Airburst to reduce the level of collateral damage through restricting the ground spread(I can't believe I'm trying to reduce collateral damage here). This is probably the single case where you actually WANT your opponent to SUCCEED on his save.

Interesting point about wanting your opponent to succeed their save. This makes wizards and clerics with the high Will saves the best targets for this spell, in that regard. However, my wizard still wouldn't risk hitting an artifact.

 

[FrankTrollman]

1. Don't keep all of your eggs in one basket, have backup gear. Sure, it won't be as good as your main gear, but it'll be good.

If we use the "expected wealth per level" guidelines - that's impossible. At 17th level you have 340,000 gp worth of equipment. That's a lot, but it doesn't quite pay for 17th level equipment in all of your slots to begin with.

The supposed wealth levels are really low compared to what PCs can actually do. But MDJ is designed based upon the idea that they will be used. If we use those guidelines, then keeping back-up equipment is simply not an option.

2. Make sure your character is more than just a moving collection of equipment. Give him/her enough depth and personality to transcend whatever may be in the backpack.

I'm lost. How does this help you kill a shadow?

3. Come better prepared. At those levels there are ample divination spells and abilities to collect information. If you find that the opponent you face has or may have a particularly devistating attack form or spell, find a way to neutralize or find a different opponent.

That won't work either. At 17th level, all of your enemies can do this sort of thing. Furthermore, any Wizard who can cast MDJ can also cast Mindblank (it's even the same school). Played at all intelligently, you can't gain information from divination spells.

-Frank

 

[WingOver]

That won't work either. At 17th level, all of your enemies can do this sort of thing. Furthermore, any Wizard who can cast MDJ can also cast Mindblank (it's even the same school). Played at all intelligently, you can't gain information from divination spells.

Sure you could... use mundane methods like Gather Information.
Magically, you could scry on his henchmen. And as a last and very powerful resort, you could use Greater Arcane Sight and just look at him (regardless of Mind Blank). That doesn't really count as "come better prepared", but it'll do in a pinch.