How do you handle Mordenkainen's Disjunction?

[BVB]

BVB said: So you get hit by MD -- big deal. Either you're in the same straits now as your enemy and you fight it out like real men, or he's still too tough and you run away to fight another day.

The problem with this line of reasoning is Shadows.

As simple CR 3 Shadow is only harmed by magic weapons and spells.

That means that without a magic weapon ...

No problem there, Mr. TROLLman. It falls under the latter choice in my solution: RUN AWAY.

 

[FrankTrollman]

I've got an even better idea... how about we just have a pissing contest to see who can make the most humerous acronym out of other peoples' names.

-Frank

 

[Squire James]

I just got here, so I'll state my opinion and let it sit.

Mord's Disjunction has two problems that can potentially wreck a campaign. First, there's the obvious item-drain problem. Second, the spell totally destroys the idea that artifacts are hard to get rid of. Why bathe the Grand Gadget of Evil in the hearts-blood of a devil more powerful than Asmodeus if you can just put it into a suitably open space and cast MJ over and over again until it works (trusting the dice not to roll a 1 on that Will save)?

In addition to that, it has one problem that makes it unbalancing in the short term, too... namely its use as an automatic Dispel Magic.

The easy thing to do is to simply forbid the spell... Miracle makes a great replacement for it in any domain that might have it... pretty bad when a spell's less balanced than Wish, huh?

The more difficult path is to nerf the spell in such a way that it still makes a good level 9 spell:

1. I would limit the artifact-destruction effects to minor artifacts, and major artifacts that could be replaced by someone over time. Yeah, you can destroy Thor's hammer Mjolnir, but Odin will just have another one made sooner or later. Irreplaceable artifacts are assumed to beyond mortal magic, even if that mortal is Mordenkainen.

2. Magic items gain a Will save based on the item's caster level - the maker of the item had good Will saves and so will the item. Assume the caster's saves are similar to a PC wizard's or cleric's Will save if the item if the caster level of the item is similar.

3. The magic dispelling effect acts as a targetted Greater Dispel (with a dispel check cap of +25) were cast on everyone in the area. In my opinion, this still makes the spell well worth a level 9 slot considering this ability alone!

 

[Cedric]

Also remember that the "permanent" loss of all magical power isn't all that, well, permanent. The way D&D handles classes is that getting a new level of Wizard overwrites your previous level - just as getting a +3 enhancement on oyur sword supercedes a +2 enhancement on the same.

So if a 17th level Wizard loses all of his magical abilities - all he has to do is take a single level of Wizard and he has all of the magical abilities of an 18th level Wizard. MDJ does not prevent you from gaining new levels of Wizard - and 18th level doesn't give you +1 9th level spell - it gives two 9th level spells.

So while MDJ can end up with a powerful wizard running around as a commoner for a while - it ends as soon as he gets 17,000 XP in a pile - so it's not that much of a deterent.

I can't imagine a GM would actually play it this way. Especially when the spell description clearly states that restoring your magical ability is beyond even the powers of a Wish or Miracle spell.

I think reading the rules to mean that taking one level of wizard restores all of your casting ability (when lost in this manner) is a gross misinterpretation of the rules.

Second, the spell totally destroys the idea that artifacts are hard to get rid of. Why bathe the Grand Gadget of Evil in the hearts-blood of a devil more powerful than Asmodeus if you can just put it into a suitably open space and cast MJ over and over again until it works (trusting the dice not to roll a 1 on that Will save)?

Considering a DC 25 Will save to avoid losing all casting abilities permanently (you can always roll a 1) and considering a 95% chance that a deity or powerful representatives of a deity (can you say Solar, I knew you could) may take notice and offense to this...means that any caster willing to cast MD on artifacts hoping to destroy them is a complete idiot.

If I were able to cast MD and I knew you had an artifact...I would specifically not use the spell, no matter how much it might benefit me otherwise.

You provided some generic tactics which are fine, but nothing which is a specific stop to MD.

Readying your own MD to counterspell it doesn't count as a means to specifically stop it?

I find D&D to be a good game, capable of great adventures. But in all great adventures, there is a chance of failure. It is up to you to develop the right plan and the right tactics to not fail. If you think a caster wielding MD is too hard...go tackle an Ancient Dragon...you might develop a new definition of hard.

Cedric

 

[FrankTrollman]

Readying your own MD to counterspell it doesn't count as a means to specifically stop it?

Not when readying your own Meteor Swarm would stop them from casting any spell. Even Epic Level characters and monsters cannot make the DC 103 Concentration Check required to cast a spell while being hit with a meteror swarm (assuming that they make all of their saves and have evasion).

Saying "if you win initiative and have a 9th level spell, you can stop them from casting it" is meaningless - you could put them in a Force Cage or any of a number of other things. If you win initiative and cast a 9th level spell - they are probably going to be out more than a turn. Counterspelling is weak likea ninja, and suggesting it as a tactic is a cruel hoax.

-Frank

 

[isoChron]

It may be nice for you guys to have a backup equipment somewhere but :
What if the total character gold is at half of the proposed already? In our campaign the best equiped character is at 60% of what is proposed as starting gold in the DMG.

So now you still have to get enough money to assemble a backup equipment just for the case ...
And where do you store it ? Bag of holding ? Bad idea if it is caught in MD. Stronghold ? OK. Nice.
But do you know how much a stronghold costs without any protection against enemies (who will steal your last bread when you are not at home).

The cat bites its own tail. The more you want to store somewhere, the better it must be protected, the more it costs, the less you can afford.

Face it, D&D is a game that strongly relies on equipment. Clerics can compensate some of that need with spells (dispel magic anyone?) but to support a group of six with one cleric is hard.
Now for a party without a cleric ....

A level 17 group with a fighter without any magical equipment is not really able to survive the first fight. The monsters have an insane high Attack and the AC of your armor is max 23 without magic.

CR are given for a fully equiped party with all spellslots available and full HP. I don't know what the challenge rating for monsters would look like without any magic items for the party.

The single effect of MD, the dipelling of all spells in the area, is a very good spell taken on it's own. Now if you destroy 50% of the items of the enemy with it this gets a great spell.
Errr, and I don't know how many artifacts you see in your campaign, but artifacts are VERY rare. I have seen two in 5 years. And it was pretty clear there is an artifact so no one would ever use a MD on it.

I'm aware that high level gaming is always a risk for the character but it should be fun to play. I for my part have no fun running around for (game-)weeks only to get a part of my equipment back. Until the next mad evil wizard throws another MD at the party. If I let my character die I can be back at full in a second with a new one. But I like my characters and what they experienced. I want to play them and develop their characteristics.

BYE

 

[Cedric]

It's obvious I have nothing further to contribute to this conversation...so I'll stop trying after this post. I just wanted to leave you with one last thought...

The things that you complain about being too hard to counter...those are things that have never worried me or my characters, because I have always been prepared for them.

It's up to you whether you should re-think your tactics, or just continue to complain about the things you've convinced yourself you can't beat.

Cedric

 

[Bauglir]

Just a thought. If you have a set of backup equipment ready to go and your main eq. gets wiped out by MDJ, what's to stop the very same thing happening to your backup set the next day?

And then what do you do?

 

[S'mon]

Just a thought. If you have a set of backup equipment ready to go and your main eq. gets wiped out by MDJ, what's to stop the very same thing happening to your backup set the next day?

And then what do you do?

I guess you're screwed.

I've always tried to avoid the excessive equipment-dependence of 3e. Characters who are underequipped as a result of MD or otherwise can always seek out easier challenges - they'll advance more slowly, but I don't see a problem with taking 6-8 sessions to level instead of 3-4, especially if the PCs are already level 17 or so. I guess in a Monte Cook-style campaign where everything is carefully balanced to the party's capabilities & there's no slack, maybe MD needs to be nerfed. In a more traditional campaign it's just part of high-level life.

As I said earlier, having 1/2 book-standard gear by value doesn't make you half as effective - for a Fighter they're probably about 80% as effective, most other classes even moreso.

 

[Darklone]

How to deal with Mordenkainen's Disjunction?

As a PC...

First of all, having a good Will save definitely helps with those magic item saving throws!

Then carrying backup gear in an extradimensional space is also a good idea to be able to quickly recover!

Uhm extradimensional space? How do you access it, btw, what kind of extradimensional thing is not destroyed by a MD? Bag of Holding should be gone...