D&D 5E (2024) How do you handle surprised but won initiative?

[SkidAce]

I certainly don't claim to be an expert by any means so there may be all kinds of implications that I am not appreciating. Just trying to add to the conversation...

I was thinking that the folks who were surprised and lost initiative are acting after the surprise action/attack so could act normally given the state of things after the surprise was sprung. It could be reasonable to limit their actions as well during the 1st turn but this probably depends on how a DM interprets the situation and the level of surprise as well as reasonable responses.

I also have not thought through when there are multiple surprise attackers - some of whom win initiative and some of whom are lower in the order of actions. Do you just see the 1st attacker that jumps out (for example) since others are still hidden?

Thanks.

I kinda feel a lot DM adjudication is needed for so many of these varied situations. We will continue to use the 2014 framework for initiative and work from there.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

There's a surprisingly short distance between the two bolded bits here, at least in my eyes. The very term"cinematic combat" brings to mind images of the characters striking dramatic poses and spouting badly-written lines as they wade through their foes.

Then you undetstand ghe term cinematic incorrectly in the context of TTRPGs.

Fine for cinema. Not what I want to see in a game where we're at least in theory trying to roleplay somewhat-real people (though in the past as DM I have thrown in the occasional NPC - usually a knight in shining armour - to intentionally parody the idea, to amusing results).

Sounds cinematic from here, even including that there's an audience for him to play to.

Okay? Did you actually read what you are quoting, or just skim for the bits you could smarmily take pot shots at?

The whole point of that example is that people have played silly characters in dnd forever, but it is no more the norm now than it was in 1980.

If you have this little willingness to even try just a tiny bit to understand whst other people are saying and where they are coming from, why do you even go on forums?

 

[doctorbadwolf]

Like it or not, though, the rules to a large extent determine the types of decisions the PCs (and by extension, their players) are allowed and-or expected to make.

Irrelevant. We are not discussing PC decisions to make fights harder foe themselves. That idea is an invention of your mind. No one but you ever said anything like that.

Until and unless the DM turns that around and ambushes the PCs; and IMO anything the PCs can do is fair game to do against them.

Non sequitor. The heck are you even talking about? Are you replying to the wrong post?

Which in my books puts you in position to TPK your group without a die being rolled by simply reversing the situation, and I rather suspect most players wouldn't be too keen on that.

Okay, so most people wouldnt play in your game?

Although, in fact, people do skip conbat when the PCs have no vhance of success. It is just objectively poor DMing to intentionally create TPK situations with no chance to avoid them. Usually those situations involve capture or the like, and while some players have always (this is not new) disliked that sort of "railroading" it has always been and will always be part of the game for many groups.

That, and any combat - no matter how seemingly trivial - has the chance of going sideways and causing major consequences.

Not in dnd lol

A game that at its very root involves the DM presenting a fictional world or setting of which the PCs are residents and in which they function. To the PCs, that's the reality they live in; and that's what you're simulating with every word you narrate.

Nah

The "striking dramatic poses" piece is mild hyperbole, I admit, but it nicely evokes the stereotype that some posts here bring to mind.

No. It doesn't. It nicely evokes your dismissive attitude toward your fellow posters and an attitude of imagined superiority, and nothing more.

Sorry, never seen it, so the example is lost on me.

You can't extrapolate to any example in anything you have seen or read?

 

[Maxperson]

I mean, there’s always a fix. RAW and/or homebrew RAW will make this situation be weird, so we do something else that makes sense.

I mean, I guess. If you want to take literally 30 hours for a small combat, you can make it very realistic and boring. You do you. Most of us want to play an RPG, not a 30 hour skirmish game.

 

[Maxperson]

When something can be done to move that needle without slowing things down, do it - even if it goes against RAW.

Sure. That's the key. Without slowing things down. Combat is already slow.

And sometimes if moving the needle does slow things down a bit, it's more than worth it. Individual initiatives rerolled each round on an unmodified d6 allowing ties is one such fix.

I will roll individual initiatives unless there are large numbers of monsters. Even then I tend to roll them in batches, rather than just once for a side. Like if there are 50 orcs in the fight, I'll roll for batches of 10, rather than just let 50 orcs go on a single number. What I'm not going to do is roll initiative 50 times every round and do them separately. My players would roll initiative to see which one gets to punch me first.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

So in 5e 24 how do you handle someone who is surprised, but unaware of a hidden ambusher?

From the SRD:

Initiative determines the order of turns during combat. When combat starts, every participant rolls Initiative; they make a Dexterity check that determines their place in the Initiative order. The GM rolls for monsters. For a group of identical creatures, the GM makes a single roll, so each member of the group has the same Initiative.

Surprise. If a combatant is surprised by combat starting, that combatant has Disadvantage on their Initiative roll. For example, if an ambusher starts combat while hidden from a foe who is unaware that combat is starting, that foe is surprised.

So an ambusher has hidden well and the whole party is surprised but someone wins initiative over the ambusher. A lone ambusher attacking a multiperson party this is not that unlikely.

I see two ways to handle this.

1 The high initiative surprised get their place set in initiative but no real combat actions until after they are aware they are in combat.

2 They are aware something is up, but no idea what. They could dodge, or look around and make a search perception check, or cast a prep spell/use a power, or move, or do something else appropriate.

1st
Advantage on initiative vs disadvantage usually allows the ambusher to go first.

2nd
What you say in 2. If someone is faster, they can do what they want. Usually a perception check negates the invisible condition from hiding at least.
The thing that tipps the defenders off might be an animal sound or the lack thereof. It might just be the tingling on the neck. It does not have to be something specific.
And if they can't decide on an action. I would just assume they dodge like companions that have no orders.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

Sometimes people react before they really know what's going on and/or recover from surprise almost instantly.

When I was in junior high school a buddy of mine saw me cutting behind the buildings we lived in to get somewhere. He hid behind a corner and jumped out at me to surprise me. Before I even knew who he was I had punched him in the face. Afterwards he said he was never doing that again.

Were I to use the 5.5e rules, I'd let the defender attack first.

Of course. So it is a readied action on somebody springing on you.

 

[Reynard]

Now in the event that we roll Initiative and the surprise creature's turn comes up before the ambusher in combat but doesn't yet know who are the other participants or what was attempted when it's turn comes up, as DM i usually rely on the narrative to describe what Initiative lead to combat starting. Someone is closing in or attempting to attack as noise is heard or a suddent intuition of imminent danger is felt etc..

With Initiative, what matter here is that combatant knows its surprised by combat starting despite not perceiving any active threat, even if it only comes down to intuition like i said.

All in all, the effect of surprised will have been achieved, which is Disadvantage to Initiative.

Does the concealed attacker still get Advantage and sneak attack/whatever?

 

[Reynard]

I mean, I guess. If you want to take literally 30 hours for a small combat, you can make it very realistic and boring. You do you. Most of us want to play an RPG, not a 30 hour skirmish game.

Come on now.

 

[Lanefan]

Cinematic combat isn't just Marvel cinematic universe-like depictions.
There are other styles of combat: cinematic often just means narrative and dynamic: people are fighting for a reason, in a challenging and changing scenario.

To me, "cinematic" means what it says: the combat you see in a movie, whether it's Errol Flynn striking dashing poses during swordfights or a Marvel hero (any of 'em!) holding the "hero's landing" pose for a second or two or whatever.

And why does it work in conema but not in the game, you ask? Because in cinema you already know who's going to win, every time, which makes it inherently less entertaining and so they have to add extra entertainment to compensate; while in the game the outcome of any significant fight should never be nearly that certain and that uncertainty is itself the provider of entertainment.

Maybe, but one example I quoted had someone changing their action based on the reaction to their previously-declared action.

Too late. The declared action has to already be happening, as you can't react to something that doesn't exist yet.

If that is where you personally draw the limit of human capabilities, then you could restrict the available actions, or just state that there is no initiative roll if you regard it as a fait accompli.

The latter is my preference: if the the initiator of the combat has surprise that initiator gets to act first, before initiative is even rolled. That said, I'd be somewhat restrictive on what the initiator can do with that action, for example the panther could leap from its tree and shred someone but could not then use the rest of its movement to run away before people could act.