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D&D 5E How do you hope WotC treats the upcoming classic settings?


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Scribe

Hero
I've explained it before in this thread. I don't want to derail this thread because of my hatred of the Great Wheel. I like Sigil and the Outlands, which are some of the main parts of Planescape (if I understand correctly), but I absolutely despise the alignment-based, redundant nature of the Great Wheel.
To be minorly heretical myself...my own version does go down from the 16 outer planes, to 8, while I do understand why the planes of conflict exist, I do see your point (slightly).

That said, Alignment driven Planes, is like 70% of what I want out of a 5e Planescape, with 15% Sigil, and 15% Gods/Belief.
 

AcererakTriple6

Autistic DM (he/him)
To be minorly heretical myself...my own version does go down from the 16 outer planes, to 8
And that's exactly the type of downsizing that I think the Great Wheel could use!
while I do understand why the planes of conflict exist, I do see your point (slightly).
Rant about redundancy below.

I just never understood why there was a different plane for Chaotic Evil Fiendland (heh. "Fiendland" kinda sounds like "Finland") and Chaotic-Neutral-Evil Fiendland and another for Neutral-Chaotic-Evil Fiendland. The Abyss and Pandemonium seem redundant to me, as do Hades and Gehenna, Ysgard and Acheron, and most of the Upper Planes. I just need one plane of Good (Heaven), one or two planes of Evil (Hell and the Abyss), one Plane of Law, one of Chaos, and then the Inner Planes. I like Carceri, but it never made sense as a full plane to me, and I think it works better as a demiplane.
That said, Alignment driven Planes, is like 70% of what I want out of a 5e Planescape, with 15% Sigil, and 15% Gods/Belief.
I'm fine with planes tied to alignment. I like a separation between a Plane of Law and a Plane of Chaos, as well as a Plane of Good and a Plane of Evil. I just don't really think there needs to be a plane for every alignment, and certainly don't get the "in-between alignment" planes. Those are the source of most the Great Wheel's redundancy, IMO.

(I also never understood why the plane of Evil War, Acheron, was on the Lawful axis of the Great Wheel, when Chaos would make a lot more sense. I'm guessing it's because then Acheron and Ysgard can be direct reflections of each other on the Great Wheel, but it never vibed well for me.)
 

Scribe

Hero
I mean, I could probably wax lyrical on the various merits and virtues...but yeah. The various conflict planes illustrate the pull of neutrality right?

If they are needed or not is, well, in the eye of the beholder.

I certainly see a difference between LG and CG, and 'pure' Good, just as there is a difference between CG, CE, and CN.

I would be sad to see Pandemonium go for example, because it simply isnt the same as Limbo, or obviously, the Abyss. It has a bit of Evil, but its not EVIL EVIL, ya know?

sigh

I sure hope we get a nice new book for them all.
 

Hussar

Legend
I know this is heretical, but, I do actually like the 4e cosmology better than Planescape. From a design perspective - ensuring that the planes are places to adventure - it just appeals to me more. Also, from an in-universe perspective, the whole Dawn War, Primordials vs the Gods just makes me happy.

That and I do not like how Planescape became the default for all planar things in D&D, even when it didn't need to be.
 

Scribe

Hero
I know this is heretical, but, I do actually like the 4e cosmology better than Planescape. From a design perspective - ensuring that the planes are places to adventure - it just appeals to me more. Also, from an in-universe perspective, the whole Dawn War, Primordials vs the Gods just makes me happy.

That and I do not like how Planescape became the default for all planar things in D&D, even when it didn't need to be.
4e did have a few good things going.

However...

I know this is heretical...

And he was right...
 

Azuresun

Adventurer
So, yes, you can have kender who are mentally ill. That's fine. But, you can't, or at least shouldn't anyway, write them in such a way that this mental illness is a good thing. Oh, it's just because a random magical effect (note, Kender in universe were NOT created by a god, but rather by the accidental release of Chaos by the Greygem of Gargath - they are the gnomish victims of radiation exposure who have been horribly mutated to the point where they aren't even gnomes anymore) so, it's okay? No. It really, really isn't.

Alternatively, don't write it in such a way that it can be mistaken for mental illness (which is what seems to have happened), but rather a point of view that seems weird to humans, but is entirely consistent and sensible to those who hold it. Or, let the non-humans actually feel unlike humans.
 

Aldarc

Legend
I know this is heretical, but, I do actually like the 4e cosmology better than Planescape. From a design perspective - ensuring that the planes are places to adventure - it just appeals to me more. Also, from an in-universe perspective, the whole Dawn War, Primordials vs the Gods just makes me happy.

That and I do not like how Planescape became the default for all planar things in D&D, even when it didn't need to be.
4e was accused of simply "filling in boxes in the spreadsheets" when it came to power sources and roles, which wasn't true, but this is precisely how D&D approached its Great Wheel cosmology. "Oh. Ummm...we need something to exist in this LN plane, but also something different in this LN one that leans good or this LN that leans evil." Ugh. The World Axis felt like it was built to be an actual setting first and foremost for dramatic cosmological conflict and table play.
 

Hussar

Legend
Alternatively, don't write it in such a way that it can be mistaken for mental illness (which is what seems to have happened), but rather a point of view that seems weird to humans, but is entirely consistent and sensible to those who hold it. Or, let the non-humans actually feel unlike humans.
Oh, absolutely. I hope no one thought that I meant that there was only one way forward. There's a whole bunch of ways forward.

Again, I totally agree that there was no malicious intent on the author's part. They thought it was a cool idea and ran with it. And, at the time, no one would have given it a second thought, because, well, mental illness wasn't really part of the public conversation. This was the 70's and 80's. It's certainly not shocking that some of the things that seemed like a good idea at the time might be ... seen as less so now.

On a side note, because of the new Bond movie coming out, I'm rewatching all the original Bond movies in order. HOLY CRAP! I so want to wash my eyeballs out with bleach. Yikes! So, yeah, it's understandable that stuff that was written in that time might be just a shade less sensitive to various groups than it could be. Let's be honest here, Kender are hardly the worst offenders in the game and probably aren't really that egregious. But, it's such an easy fix that I don't know why we wouldn't. The notion of a group (race) that doesn't have a sense of personal ownership is perfectly fine. There are lots of real world cultures that don't go for personal property.

Anarcho Marxist Kender for the win!
 

Steampunkette

Shaper of Worlds
Supporter
Again, you're trying to justify events in the fiction using the Thermian Argument.

Here's the link for a very good watch:


Basically, at it's heart, you're saying that no matter how egregious the text is, how racist, bigoted, misogynistic, whatever, doesn't matter so long as you can justify it in universe. The problem is, those gods DON'T EXIST. They are just fictional constructs of the author. The AUTHOR is the one writing these dehumanizing things. Now, do we accept that our fiction is racist, bigotted, hateful, or do we step up and say, "No!" There is no actual justification for glorifying mental illness. There just isn't.

So, yes, you can have kender who are mentally ill. That's fine. But, you can't, or at least shouldn't anyway, write them in such a way that this mental illness is a good thing. Oh, it's just because a random magical effect (note, Kender in universe were NOT created by a god, but rather by the accidental release of Chaos by the Greygem of Gargath - they are the gnomish victims of radiation exposure who have been horribly mutated to the point where they aren't even gnomes anymore) so, it's okay? No. It really, really isn't.

Either write kender so that their curse is an actual affliction, or don't write it at all. Celebrating mental illness and pretending that mental illness is a good thing is just not acceptable anymore.
Or, the short version:

"You painted a naked woman because you enjoyed looking at her, put a mirror in her hand and you called the painting Vanity, thus morally condemning the woman whose nakedness you had depicted for you own pleasure."
-Jon Berger-

The character has nothing, is nothing, except what the creator has decided. They have no more motivation, no more agency, than a plastic cup on your desk.
 

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