pawsplay
Hero
Given Arcane Spell Failure, I always figured wizards had to be jazz dancers or something.
How do you justify the bard's abilities?
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Given Arcane Spell Failure, I always figured wizards had to be jazz dancers or something.
Garthanos
Arcadian Knight
For me one of the elements of all magical power is the concept of communication any medium which is used for communication becomes a medium by which magic is done. So speech, music, written texts, gestures etc and so on. The universe is created and mastered by the power of naming... you control that which you name ... medium is stylistic.
billd91
Not your screen monkey (he/him) 🇺🇦🇵🇸🏳️⚧️
I have no trouble visualizing it at all, but then I've been moved to tears of both joy and sorrow by various (particularly musical) performances, sometimes much to my own surprise. The effect can be quite powerful. Imagining real magical effects from the power of music isn't a stretch at all.
Neonchameleon
Legend
I have never seen the problem. Although what bards are has varied from edition to edition.
In 2E, bards were Adventurers - wandering around picking up tricks from absolutely everyone as they went, and not discarding things that could save their lives later. Which is why they mixed weapons, armour, thief skills, and magic. It wasn't so much a class as a multiclass magic-user/fighter/thief using a sane experience point progression. There was not a thing in the rules about singing unless you wanted there to be.
In 3e, bards had a wide range. And were the single most badass class going. here are just some of the things that could be done extremely well by 3E (preferably 3.5) bards.
3E bards were Adventurers. And they'd even managed to pick up some healing magic. They'd also seen most traps before or thought of them and so could warn and advise (Inspire Courage/Competence) and spin fascinating tales.
3E bards were Loremasters. They might not know as much about magic as wizards, but knew a bit about absolutely everything under the sun. And could advise everyone how to do things and where the weak spots on all the monsters were.
Bards were Skalds. Long haired chainmail wearing viking warchanters who drove their allies into hightened frenzy.
Bards were Swashbucklers. Tumbling under or leaping on tables and as much dancing as fighting. And utterly bamboozling the foe with tricks from up their sleeves.
Bards were Con Men. Confusing, bamboozling, and befuddling in a way rogues couldn't match. And sometimes so keen on conning people into thinking they could do magic they thought it was all a con themselves.
Bards were Spies. Able to change shape and then with the ranks in bluff to carry the disguise off. And to know how the foe thought. For that matter, bards made great spymasters as well, already half-informed from Bardic Lore and able to bluff or read targets.
Bards were Nobles. Trained in everything and at high expense. But when it comes to heavy lifting, your job is to convince others to do it for you.
Bards were Mystics. Rocking out to the primal chord that is the echo of the Big Bang. Or the Music of the Spheres. Or simply throwing a hard rock haleilujah that made the enemy's ear drums bleed.
Bards were Enchanters. No evocation, merely a specialism in mind affecting magic whether arcane or merely the ability to move an audience to tears through sheer skill.
Bards were Officers. Not the strongest person in the unit, but able to turn an otherwise mediocre team into a buzz-saw of doom (and a crack commando unit into something you might as well cut your own guards as face), or to take a group of untrained peasants and use them to throw back a marauding orc horde.
Bards were Satirists. Piss off a bard and he'd create a poem in your honour. And the performance would attract a quarter of the town.
Bards were Rabble Rousers. Able to recruit an army of the disaffected and convince them to storm the vampire's castle with torches and pitch forks. And do a damn good job when they did.
Bards were Diplomats. If you capture a bard, at the very least gag him! Otherwise he will just talk his way out of his cell and into command of your army.
Bards were Performers. Able to tell any joke well enough the target couldn't stop laughing. Or to spellbind an entire audience.
Bards were Battlefield Medics. Not as good at healing as the cleric, but a damn sight better at getting to downed allies (tumble, jump, lighter armour). And all able to pre-emptively heal at range from level 9.
Indiana Jones was a down the line 3e Bard. Right down to Whip Proficiency.
And I've missed quite a few out.
4e Bards are most of that. But they now need to defend their territory from Warlords, Charismadins, Warlocks, and others.
In 2E, bards were Adventurers - wandering around picking up tricks from absolutely everyone as they went, and not discarding things that could save their lives later. Which is why they mixed weapons, armour, thief skills, and magic. It wasn't so much a class as a multiclass magic-user/fighter/thief using a sane experience point progression. There was not a thing in the rules about singing unless you wanted there to be.
In 3e, bards had a wide range. And were the single most badass class going. here are just some of the things that could be done extremely well by 3E (preferably 3.5) bards.
3E bards were Adventurers. And they'd even managed to pick up some healing magic. They'd also seen most traps before or thought of them and so could warn and advise (Inspire Courage/Competence) and spin fascinating tales.
3E bards were Loremasters. They might not know as much about magic as wizards, but knew a bit about absolutely everything under the sun. And could advise everyone how to do things and where the weak spots on all the monsters were.
Bards were Skalds. Long haired chainmail wearing viking warchanters who drove their allies into hightened frenzy.
Bards were Swashbucklers. Tumbling under or leaping on tables and as much dancing as fighting. And utterly bamboozling the foe with tricks from up their sleeves.
Bards were Con Men. Confusing, bamboozling, and befuddling in a way rogues couldn't match. And sometimes so keen on conning people into thinking they could do magic they thought it was all a con themselves.
Bards were Spies. Able to change shape and then with the ranks in bluff to carry the disguise off. And to know how the foe thought. For that matter, bards made great spymasters as well, already half-informed from Bardic Lore and able to bluff or read targets.
Bards were Nobles. Trained in everything and at high expense. But when it comes to heavy lifting, your job is to convince others to do it for you.
Bards were Mystics. Rocking out to the primal chord that is the echo of the Big Bang. Or the Music of the Spheres. Or simply throwing a hard rock haleilujah that made the enemy's ear drums bleed.
Bards were Enchanters. No evocation, merely a specialism in mind affecting magic whether arcane or merely the ability to move an audience to tears through sheer skill.
Bards were Officers. Not the strongest person in the unit, but able to turn an otherwise mediocre team into a buzz-saw of doom (and a crack commando unit into something you might as well cut your own guards as face), or to take a group of untrained peasants and use them to throw back a marauding orc horde.
Bards were Satirists. Piss off a bard and he'd create a poem in your honour. And the performance would attract a quarter of the town.
Bards were Rabble Rousers. Able to recruit an army of the disaffected and convince them to storm the vampire's castle with torches and pitch forks. And do a damn good job when they did.
Bards were Diplomats. If you capture a bard, at the very least gag him! Otherwise he will just talk his way out of his cell and into command of your army.
Bards were Performers. Able to tell any joke well enough the target couldn't stop laughing. Or to spellbind an entire audience.
Bards were Battlefield Medics. Not as good at healing as the cleric, but a damn sight better at getting to downed allies (tumble, jump, lighter armour). And all able to pre-emptively heal at range from level 9.
Indiana Jones was a down the line 3e Bard. Right down to Whip Proficiency.
And I've missed quite a few out.
4e Bards are most of that. But they now need to defend their territory from Warlords, Charismadins, Warlocks, and others.
ExploderWizard
Hero
Garthanos
Arcadian Knight
I think your point is similar to the one of letting the player define how the characters power works.... after all classes are not "just one thing" the details of how things opperate really dont need to be for instance tied down to... Classic Celtic Bards .... or Kalevala... or visualization of Orpheus.. or even Indiana Jones
. Because that makes classes far less useful than they can be.
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Quite frankly, the first biggest problem bards have is that they're tied to the lute playing nancy who prances around and goes "fa-la-la!." This is what people think of when they think bards.
In other words, bards are looked down on because lutes are lame. It's an image problem. Have you seen most of the pictures in the 2e Complete Book of Bards? It's the sissiest thing imaginable! I blame the problem on this bizarre need people had to force D&D to be a psuedo-medieval game in as many annoying ways as possible (This is the source of a lot of issues, in fact), while ignoring that the game is about dungeon crawling. The fa-la-la dandies might fit in a cheesy "oh god this isn't at all how it works" medieval tavern, but they don't fit at all in a dungeon or any combat situation.
It's a similar problem of monks, I think. Monks were divorced from what could've been cool wuxia style characters, masters of martial arts and swordplay, torn between believing in a full sanctity of all life and the need for justice...and turned into really terrible 70's kung fu types. Bards went from powerful druidic sages, a jack of all trades and master of many, to "fa-la-la, isn't today glorious my adventurous friends! Come, let us prance about the maypole in a gay old fashion!" Look at how cool you can easily make bards when you get rid of that garbage:
The half-orc bard that slams on his drums as the battle rages on, introducing a primal beat to every step and attack? Awesome. The dwarf bard that speaks in poem of the glories of his ancestors and their deeds as he kneecaps the enemy? Awesome. A large and ornately dressed man who sings his arms wide and sings, causing the mountains to crumble and the world to reshape itself to his command? Awesome. The mysterious woman followed by the spirits of the dead who do her bidding as she plays her flute? Awesome. The Dark Sun bard who doesn't play an instrument, but instead uses his charm and charisma to allow him to operate as an assassin? Totally awesome!
The poncy guy in green who plays a lute and sings "Fa-la la!" as he goes along? As un-awesome as you can ever humanly be. Consequently: almost all the images you first get when you look up bards.
I'm in a 3.5 game right now where I'm a caster-bard (going Sublime Chord) who plays a fiddle. Our BBEG is a lich bard who plays a guitar. Just pause for a moment and grasp how awesome that final battle is going to be.
In other words, bards are looked down on because lutes are lame. It's an image problem. Have you seen most of the pictures in the 2e Complete Book of Bards? It's the sissiest thing imaginable! I blame the problem on this bizarre need people had to force D&D to be a psuedo-medieval game in as many annoying ways as possible (This is the source of a lot of issues, in fact), while ignoring that the game is about dungeon crawling. The fa-la-la dandies might fit in a cheesy "oh god this isn't at all how it works" medieval tavern, but they don't fit at all in a dungeon or any combat situation.
It's a similar problem of monks, I think. Monks were divorced from what could've been cool wuxia style characters, masters of martial arts and swordplay, torn between believing in a full sanctity of all life and the need for justice...and turned into really terrible 70's kung fu types. Bards went from powerful druidic sages, a jack of all trades and master of many, to "fa-la-la, isn't today glorious my adventurous friends! Come, let us prance about the maypole in a gay old fashion!" Look at how cool you can easily make bards when you get rid of that garbage:
The half-orc bard that slams on his drums as the battle rages on, introducing a primal beat to every step and attack? Awesome. The dwarf bard that speaks in poem of the glories of his ancestors and their deeds as he kneecaps the enemy? Awesome. A large and ornately dressed man who sings his arms wide and sings, causing the mountains to crumble and the world to reshape itself to his command? Awesome. The mysterious woman followed by the spirits of the dead who do her bidding as she plays her flute? Awesome. The Dark Sun bard who doesn't play an instrument, but instead uses his charm and charisma to allow him to operate as an assassin? Totally awesome!
The poncy guy in green who plays a lute and sings "Fa-la la!" as he goes along? As un-awesome as you can ever humanly be. Consequently: almost all the images you first get when you look up bards.
I'm in a 3.5 game right now where I'm a caster-bard (going Sublime Chord) who plays a fiddle. Our BBEG is a lich bard who plays a guitar. Just pause for a moment and grasp how awesome that final battle is going to be.
To run on Neonchameleon's post, I think the second problem bards have is that they're tied to a buffing bard song. "But Cirno, that's their whole schtick!" Yes, I know, that's the problem. They should have more then that.
In 3.5, you saw the alternate class feature to trade your extremely vague bardic lore for bardic knack. Bam, you could use half your bard level instead of your skill rank in any skill. That was awesome! Bards could once again be the jack of all trades. Why wasn't this a core ability to begin with?
I think the bard song should just be one of many things bards do - and I also think bard song should be more then just for buffing. Why do I like and hate the level 20 cap on bards so much? Because it's so rich with what could be awesome, only to be dragged down by "lol bards have to perform."
Take away the performance part, and instead make it a curse. It's still fitting with bards! Instead of tra-la-laing their way to the enemy's death, they point an accusing finger at them and chant out ancient words of hate and bile, causing them to die as they stare. Look at truenaming - that's as bardic as it gets!
You have a class who, fluff wise, talks about ancient and secret lore, traveling to the far corners of the world in search of knowledge, understanding and cunning on how to deal with people just right...and their main ability is to make everyone else in the party feel a little bit stronger. It's no wonder they're picked on.
In 3.5, you saw the alternate class feature to trade your extremely vague bardic lore for bardic knack. Bam, you could use half your bard level instead of your skill rank in any skill. That was awesome! Bards could once again be the jack of all trades. Why wasn't this a core ability to begin with?
I think the bard song should just be one of many things bards do - and I also think bard song should be more then just for buffing. Why do I like and hate the level 20 cap on bards so much? Because it's so rich with what could be awesome, only to be dragged down by "lol bards have to perform."
Take away the performance part, and instead make it a curse. It's still fitting with bards! Instead of tra-la-laing their way to the enemy's death, they point an accusing finger at them and chant out ancient words of hate and bile, causing them to die as they stare. Look at truenaming - that's as bardic as it gets!
You have a class who, fluff wise, talks about ancient and secret lore, traveling to the far corners of the world in search of knowledge, understanding and cunning on how to deal with people just right...and their main ability is to make everyone else in the party feel a little bit stronger. It's no wonder they're picked on.
blargney the second
blargney the minute's son
[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1tqxzWdKKu8]YouTube - Dueling Banjos Deliverance[/ame]
Aus_Snow
First Post
My Google-fu ain't quite up to that challenge at the moment. Buuuut. . .
[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cHvsz-aRxsQ]YouTube - Yo Pumpkin! Look! A Disco Dancing Wizard![/ame]
There's yer D&D Wizard casting a spell. Bards make sense after all, no?
edit --- Might've needed some bellowing of random syllables and maybe some guano-tossing. Still.
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