How do you 'nudge' your players away from tank mentality? (and high magic games)

[Agent Oracle]

But you are assuming the character didn't already have magical version s of those to begin with.

I'm presuming this because Emirikol is presuming the opposite. that the higher level fighter WITHOUT magic items is stronger than the nearby lower level WITH magic. I'm providing an example to the contrary.

I find it rare for a 10th level fighter to go from normal armor to +2 or higher at 11th level.

As do I. Frankly, in nearly every game i've ever played, +2 items (weapons and armors) showed up by around 6th level.

Also, magical items are rarely going to be that exact for a character. It's not like once one gets 11th level they have 17k more money to invest in magic. By then they have probably found that much more magic but it could also be items that are not nearly as useful.

Again: my post was intended to provide a counterexample to Emirikol's post. His conceptual example was of higher levels without equipment being greater in power than lower levels properly outfitted.

In reality, a player has amassed wealth in the course of adventuring, which, if not already in the form of magical items, can be converted as such with minimal effort.

 

[Gort]

I don't know if I buy your arguments... As one poster noted, the low magic game is about hp's (which even in a normal high-magic D&D game it's about anyways because higher level monsters WILL hit you).

While it is true that many monsters have attack bonuses that will hit even high-AC characters, if you have a poor AC (as all low-magic characters will have) they can power-attack for obnoxious amounts.

Think about it. If your guy has 35 AC, and the monster has an attack bonus of say, 55, it can auto-hit him. However, if he only has an AC of 15, the monster can still auto-hit him, but now it power attacks, getting 40 more damage per hit assuming a two-handed weapon. (20 is still lots to add on per hit even if it doesn't use a weapon)

Power attack will completely destroy any low-magic character.

 

[Emirikol]

Don't barbarians ever use lower-damage weapons?

>While it is true that many monsters have attack bonuses that will hit even high-AC >characters, if you have a poor AC (as all low-magic characters will have) they can <power-attack for obnoxious amounts.


I will definately concede you that! ..but, if your DM is metagaming (i.e. CHEATING) that much, then you might want to have a talk with him That's as bad as a player looking up the AC of a monster so he can estimate the power attack.

I don't use power attack as a DM for the very reason's we're discussing...that and I'm lazy and don't like ot have to figure out the math

Our group is hitting 8th right now and it's working out as I expected. Because of the lack of 'super-armor' and massive-blast spells, we can still play a 'normal' game. In most campaigns, the DM wouldn't even bother with 'normal' creatures (angry mobs, wolves, lions, rhino's, rabid dogs, etc) and would instead be throwing Balors and crap at the party for sheer boredom for how powerful the group already is.

Our other bbn player comes back next game...two bbn's in the party of rogues...sigh. Good thing there's some regular interaction going on..that, and we've already outlawed the frenzied berserker class..it would just be too over the top in this game. I don't want to punish the bbn players becasue the rogues realize how valuable they are..but I don't want the game to degenerate into stupid toe to toe D&D combats with big, fat monsters just to entertain 1/6th of the players while the other 5 sit there and watch.

With all this discussion and some playing around with the numbers I think the solutions are simply to minimize the escalation of bbn power. The quickest way to do that is to nudge him away from power and towards other actions (as someone noted earlier). I should hand out really cool, diverse LOWER DAMAGE weapons. For example, instead of a +2 greataxe, I can hand out a +3 flail (with non-magical masterwork bonus to to trip), +4 daggers of returning (magical..but lower initial damage), +3 gauntlets of disarming, +3 raming-club of bull-rush, etc.

I know I used the "+5" word (hush, hush I break a rule and use+10 below) but remember in a low magic game, magic is magic and non-magical is the opposite. Shouldn't there be "LESS MAGIC ITEMS?" +5 dagger? Oooooh, hurt me! Ouch, point that somehwere else. It could be a +10 dagger before it would compare to a magical greatsword and the escalation of power will be quite different, as will the thrust of the actions of any barbarian wielding it and I don't think that it will feel like a high magic game.

Barbarians draw their power from: high strength/con, high hp's, and use of massive weapons. The only one that the DM can reasonably control is..."I rage with my....dagger?" unless he's going to start messing with the player and 'removing fun, "well, you have a cruddy Charisma..shut up and go sit in the corner while the rest of the PC's have fun."

Does 'nudging' them without punishing them seem better? Thoughts? Will I have the same problem when the next PC dies and they make a fighter?

jh

.

 

[Rystil Arden]

I will definately concede you that! ..but, if your DM is metagaming (i.e. CHEATING) that much, then you might want to have a talk with him

Huh? Please explain--how in the world is it cheating to use power attack? If anything, it would probably be metagaming for a large dumb creature *not* to use power attack against human targets initially because most things they encounter (NPC soldiers, commoners, etc) are going to be so easy to hit.

 

[Storyteller01]

Use the rules from OGL ancients? With those rules, wounds get very nasty without healing...

 

[Aus_Snow]

I'm of the philosophy that the D&D game characters were designed to be balanced in the absence of magical items no matter what the level.

Heck no. That's what house rules and/or relevant supplements are for.

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

Our group is hitting 8th right now and it's working out as I expected. Because of the lack of 'super-armor' and massive-blast spells, we can still play a 'normal' game.

Maybe you shouldn't be playing DnD then.


With all this discussion and some playing around with the numbers I think the solutions are simply to minimize the escalation of bbn power. The quickest way to do that is to nudge him away from power and towards other actions (as someone noted earlier). I should hand out really cool, diverse LOWER DAMAGE weapons. For example, instead of a +2 greataxe, I can hand out a +3 flail (with non-magical masterwork bonus to to trip), +4 daggers of returning (magical..but lower initial damage), +3 gauntlets of disarming, +3 raming-club of bull-rush, etc.

I know I used the "+5" word (hush, hush I break a rule and use+10 below) but remember in a low magic game, magic is magic and non-magical is the opposite. Shouldn't there be "LESS MAGIC ITEMS?" +5 dagger? Oooooh, hurt me! Ouch, point that somehwere else. It could be a +10 dagger before it would compare to a magical greatsword and the escalation of power will be quite different, as will the thrust of the actions of any barbarian wielding it and I don't think that it will feel like a high magic game.

Problem is, DnD is not a low-magic game and isn't designed that way.

Handing out magic daggers won't solve the problem. You could try boosting the other character's AC and non-magic damage, or try a lower power game system instead.

Barbarians draw their power from: high strength/con, high hp's, and use of massive weapons. The only one that the DM can reasonably control is..."I rage with my....dagger?" unless he's going to start messing with the player and 'removing fun, "well, you have a cruddy Charisma..shut up and go sit in the corner while the rest of the PC's have fun."

So you want the barbarian to be weaker? DnD is probably not the game for you.

 

[Agent Oracle]

I will definately concede you that! ..but, if your DM is metagaming (i.e. CHEATING) that much, then you might want to have a talk with him

Except, the GM dosn't metagame. He IS the metagame. Plenty of high-CR monsters have "power attack" as one of their feats listed in the monster manual (azer, Behir, Trumpet acheron, Astral Deva, Planetar, Solar, Delvers... the list goes on.) It's unfair to the monster, for them not to use their feats!

I don't use power attack as a DM for the very reason's we're discussing...that and I'm lazy and don't like ot have to figure out the math

Lazyness is not an excuse for unfairness.

Our group is hitting 8th right now and it's working out as I expected. Because of the lack of 'super-armor' and massive-blast spells, we can still play a 'normal' game.

Heh. I've done that too. Nothing magical at all, and it played out fairly well, of course, i still used power attack and all the feats that it is a prerequisite for. Which is why i ended it at about where you are now.

In most campaigns, the DM wouldn't even bother with 'normal' creatures (angry mobs, wolves, lions, rhino's, rabid dogs, etc) and would instead be throwing Balors and crap at the party for sheer boredom for how powerful the group already is.

Fie on those poor game skills! Any GM worth his salt is capable of playing the game without so much as a single "random" random encounter. If the players are facing Balor, then they should be able to handle a CR 18 challenge, and be in the appropriate plane, and / or facing a foe capable of summoning such a foe!

I should hand out really cool, diverse LOWER DAMAGE weapons.

Hold it! Did i just hear you say.... Hand Out? As in... no random treasure? You give the players items that you specificly want them to have?

Oh cripes. I'm officially withdrawing from this thread, I've had too many bad experiences with GM's that "Hand out" their treasure. Your players don't want what they don't want, and they will rebel against you if you force a weapon on them. I won't relate them here.

Keep on playing like you play. It's your game. i'm staying out of it.

 

[Sejs]

*do barbarians ever use lower-damage weapons?*

Sure they do, it just depends on the barbarian in question. I've seen barbarians that use greatswords and greataxes, but by the same token I've also seen barbarians that fight using spears, warhammers, battleaxes, paired kukri, etc.

Currently in my own game, the most interesting weapon is a scimitar made of sandstone that can change (via a ready weapon action) into any size-appropriate light or one-handed weapon. The weapon has a rather long personal history, and the player that has it is absolutly head over heels for the sword despite the fact that as originally envisioned the character was more oriented toward big two-handed weapons. It's all in how you deliver the package.

 

[AdmundfortGeographer]

Barbarians draw their power from: high strength/con, high hp's, and use of massive weapons. The only one that the DM can reasonably control is..."I rage with my....dagger?" unless he's going to start messing with the player and 'removing fun, "well, you have a cruddy Charisma..shut up and go sit in the corner while the rest of the PC's have fun."

Look at the PHB II alternative rage, berserker strength. I think it could give a tiny bit of help for you.